MotoGP Aero.....

[mikeerfol]

Now that could be much worse for Marquez..

[bdr529]

I posted this a week ago in the MotoGP Aero thread

I know Crutchlow brought up the safety aspect of them in Quatar
“Half of me wants to say nothing, because maybe we need them – if they work!” quipped Crutchlow.
“But imagine if that sliced someone's leg clean open?"
http://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/r ... 80218/?s=1

[turbof1]

I've merged the ducati winglet topic into this topic.

[J.A.W.]

Ok, most recently, as seen on TV.
In Texas, Ducati used both pairs of winglets again, & if anything -they appeared to be increased in size.
Rossi's Yamaha was sporting smallish 'moustache' strakes, similar to those 1st used by Lorenzo, & the latter kept the larger area units.
Suzuki has kept the bare fairing approach.

[n_anirudh]

[WaikeCU]

Any chance that turbulent air have caused a lot of riders to crash yesterday during the race. I don't think the harder front compound can be put to blame, does it?

[turbof1]

I noticed the Honda factory riders drove a different aero setup.

Pedrosa single aerofoil:


Marquez triple aerofoil:


Ducati in the meanwhile is going absolutely berserk with the winglets:

Any chance that turbulent air have caused a lot of riders to crash yesterday during the race. I don't think the harder front compound can be put to blame, does it?

Quite possible. Both Marquez and Dovizioso rode quite agressive aerofoil set ups with high camber and multi-wings. I also noticed Marquez couldn't get that easily towards Dovizioso, probably because of the turbulent wake. Rossi on the other hand has a large, low cambered aerofoil, which isn't going to loose it's aero benefits as much (can we talk in these cases about downforce??) and was much more able to pounce both Marquez and Dovizioso.

The reason why I am saying that is because both Dovizioso (behind Rossi) and Marquez (behind Dovi) were running in turbulent air. It's possible the aerofoils suddenly stalled during the agressive cornering, leading to front grip to suddenly drop away. It might still have to do with the front tyre. Ducati is blaming it infact on Michelin.

[WaikeCU]

Perhaps it's the case when they are panning in a turn and certain downforce is being generated on those winglets mayeb because the turbulent air or exhaust gasses, which puts the front wheel in a lot more stress. When the front wheel can't hold the stress any longer the front wheel just slips and that's what we saw on Sunday. All crashes have been because the front just slips away while mid turn. I think those winglets have been controversial and could lead to dangerous situations. Never have I seen wings on a bike before.

[turbof1]

Perhaps it's the case when they are panning in a turn and certain downforce is being generated on those winglets mayeb because the turbulent air or exhaust gasses, which puts the front wheel in a lot more stress. When the front wheel can't hold the stress any longer the front wheel just slips and that's what we saw on Sunday. All crashes have been because the front just slips away while mid turn. I think those winglets have been controversial and could lead to dangerous situations. Never have I seen wings on a bike before.

It's possibly dangerous yes. Loosing downforce on a car is not that detrimental as you'll simple understeer, most of the cases keeping the car on the track, and for the majority of the other cases just a small trip off the circuit before rejoining. Loosing it on a bike however will almost always lead to a crash.

It's alarming to see just how huge these winglets are becoming, meaning the bigger they become the more sensitive the bikes will become.

[J.A.W.]

Perhaps it's the case when they are panning in a turn and certain downforce is being generated on those winglets mayeb because the turbulent air or exhaust gasses, which puts the front wheel in a lot more stress. When the front wheel can't hold the stress any longer the front wheel just slips and that's what we saw on Sunday. All crashes have been because the front just slips away while mid turn. I think those winglets have been controversial and could lead to dangerous situations. Never have I seen wings on a bike before.

Lets see now..

What is new this season.. a new spec tyre manufacturer,
& the proliferation of small fairing mounted aero-strakes..

Of the two items, which is the most important in racing,
& so, most likely to be problematic - if shown to be - not fully functional?

Its a Michelin problem, obviously..

Interesting to see that Team Suzuki has finally jumped on the 'winglet' bandwagon, after 1st using them in the `70s..

[turbof1]

Its a Michelin problem, obviously..

It's possibly a michelin problem. The introduction of michelin coincided with what looks like the start of an arms race concerning aerodynamics in motogp, which effectively is for the first time in its history the sport is seriously exploring the idea. There were numerous previous attempts (Suzuki is not the only one by a long shot who tried this out), but given the persistence and spread towards even the satelite teams, this year finally looks like the first real aero surge in the sport.

That brings quite a lot of unknowns with it. It's easy to put it on the tyres and that might be correct. However, there is always the probability that the tyres are masking issues that aerodynamics bring along. It is plausible even it's both: the tyres going off at a certain point and disturbed flow towards your aero devices dropping the grip that suddenly you'll glide off the track.

It needs further investigation. I also would not call this some small aero strakes:

Especially not since the general impression is that the downforce producing devices are focussed on front grip. Those strakes make a big difference.

[eniacon]

Any chance that turbulent air have caused a lot of riders to crash yesterday during the race. I don't think the harder front compound can be put to blame, does it?

Possibly, although there were a similar number of crashes in this race last year also, and coincidentally they were mainly Honda bikes too.
David Emmett of MotoMatters/AsphaltandRubber has a pretty decent article on this.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/ ... ore-112097
The riders reckon it is more to do with the track surface being too old.

"That is, until you actually look at the statistics. Last year at Le Mans, six riders crashed out, in pretty similar circumstances to Sunday’s race. “The surface is fourteen years old,” Eugene Laverty commented, one of the twelve riders to stay upright all race long. “It needs to be redone.”"

By the way, for anyone interested, there are a few of the journos, photographers and the odd special guest who do a podcast every couple of weeks about the series, there are some technical insights in there.
Here is the link: https://soundcloud.com/the-paddock-pass-podcast

[J.A.W.]

Has anyone published actual telemetry data showing the quantitative down force effect of those aero add-ons?

Perhaps Ducati ( & MM -at Honda) is keen try to maximise it & obviate the perceived Michelin problem?
( Riders report they find no safety-warning margin between initial loss of front grip & crashing, 'unforgiving')

Ducati & Honda appear to push the front harder,
& MM reports having to brake harder - to compensate for an acceleration deficit, thereby exacerbating the problem.

[turbof1]

Has anyone published actual telemetry data showing the quantitative down force effect of those aero add-ons?

The same can be asked about tyre wear data. We have neither. And we probably will never have since these are company secrets.

It speaks for itself everything that's been said and discussed here, are opinions.

There are btw voices to forbid aero devices next year.

[Bomber_Pilot]

There are btw voices to forbid aero devices next year.

There was a discussion about this on BT Sport2 and iirc, there is a meeting taking place today, where they will discuss not only whether should the wings be banned next year, but already this season. Ducati wants to keep them, while other teams don't seem to really care that much about whether they should be allowed or not (apart from safety concerns).