2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Dry ice is a good trick. After u use the cooling benifits on your hot lap You have a heating loop or coil that dissipates any remaining dry ice on the cool down lap... Scrutineers will never find it.
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rscsr
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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At first I thought the dry ice idea was complete bogus. But since they use about 2kg fuel per lap and you need about 30kg air to burn it. With 1kg (about 1l) of dry ice at -78°C you could cool the air (of 30°C) to about 26,5°C.

diego.liv
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Italian motorsport is a bit late, but still..Didn't recall if i read about Mahle TJI, i'll post on here..tryed Google translator, i miss the speficic terminology, so sorry in advnce whenever i missed/inverted terms

http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/motori ... la-734987/

The current 6 cylinders have not yet arrived to self charging in order to be used as diesel, but research is oriented towards that direction. Now the focus is on PPC, namely the stratification of the charge with multi injections.

Difficult to find the leveling of engines

Who believes that the escalation of the powers has come to the limit of the materials you are mistaken, because the expectations of the technicians there is the ambition to churn out engines capable of a performance capable of going beyond the 50% significantly improving their efficiency. Where you can get it is hard to say, but the challenge is not only aimed to win the Grand Prix, how to industrialize the solutions that will revolutionize the market of the engines in the series product, the hypercar to the utility.
The ambition is to get to a petrol engine to operate as if they were diesel, removing the spark plug because you want to get to self-charge with the increase in pressure in the room. All carmakers are working on this ground, but no one has yet solved the problem. The first to arrive at the solution ... will have in hand the market.

HCCI: goal not yet reached

The Mercedes-Benz was among the first to invest in the HCCI (Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition) and at the Frankfurt Motor Show of 2007 had presented the F700, a concept car that contained a motor DiesOtto prototype. In fact the mystery has not been solved, yet the concept, albeit in a primitive way, was introduced in 2014 in the power unit PU106 A designed in Brixworth by the working group of Andy Cowell.

The DiesOtto is the goal that motorists want to achieve, but it can be said that research is making tremendous strides exploiting their Grand Prix as the ideal testing ground to accelerate a development that is quicker with races that in the Centres of research.

Mahle, the spark plug with the cap ...

The first Mercedes power unit is designed to take advantage of a concept which in truth was launched by Mahle, a German company that also produces the pistons of Ferrari, for direct injection engines.

What was that about? Of a candle with a sort of hood perforated at several points, that incorporated a mini-injector of gasoline. The spark of the candle caused a combustion pre-ignition which allowed a better (and faster) flame propagation.

The TJI injection developed by all

The Turbulent Jet Ignition System of Mahle, the name of the system, was not adoptable in F1 because the Regulation does not allow the use of a dual injector. But the Mercedes would be realized in just a TJI system, putting the "hood" to the candle drawing major advantages immediatly, while Ferrari and Renault had thought a traditional thermal engine that had proved uncompetitive.
From that embryo, the technicians of Brixworth have gone to raise the bar to improve the combustion quality that would come to have more than 200 bar pressure in the room.
With current compression ratios you can trigger what is called spontaneous combustion at low revs, but it has not solved the puzzle of the engine when it is fully loaded. So, at least for the moment, we not refer to it as the HCCI, but let's stop at an intermediate stage.

PPC: the way of stratified charge

And then, most probably you need to talk about Gasoline PPC, Partially Premixed Combustion, or something even more advanced in this field. Someone is working on the charge in an attempt to introduce a certain stratification of the same with the purpose to make the combustion more gradual. What are we talking about? To subdivide the injection into two or more separate injected, useful to adjust the level of pre-mixing and gain greater control of the same when the load varies. The first injected, with a minimum fuel, serves to charge the second injected to obtain a good flame propagation.

Grows the stress on the power unit

A homogeneous charge compression ignition subjected to compression leads to rapid combustion, but also to very strong stress for the engine to certain loads, in addition to an operating roughness that it can pass on to other parts of the power unit.

Not surprisingly, then, the engine Mercedes has shown sudden pain in reliability at last year's Italian Grand Prix, when a new power system that has improved the combustion had been introduced.

Renault Evo ready for Canada
Honda is working with AVL?


RE: Bernie’s intention to close the gap among engines
In short, the technological challenge is impactful and it becomes difficult to understand how anyone can think of to stabilize the power unit performance over a range of three-tenths of a second when research on internal combustion engines, there will still reserve big surprises ...

gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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rscsr wrote:At first I thought the dry ice idea was complete bogus. But since they use about 2kg fuel per lap and you need about 30kg air to burn it. With 1kg (about 1l) of dry ice at -78°C you could cool the air (of 30°C) to about 26,5°C.
I think there are some problems with your calculation. 1 kg of dry ice requires about 700 kJ of energy to evaporate. 30 kg of air will cool by about 23 *C when 700 kJ is removed.

You assumed an AFR of 15:1 - it is probably much higher than that - perhaps as high as 30:1. Even at 60 kg/lap the air temperature would reduce by 11.6 *C.
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gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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diego.liv wrote:The TJI injection developed by all

The Turbulent Jet Ignition System of Mahle, the name of the system, was not adoptable in F1 because the Regulation does not allow the use of a dual injector. But the Mercedes would be realized in just a TJI system, putting the "hood" to the candle drawing major advantages immediatly, while Ferrari and Renault had thought a traditional thermal engine that had proved uncompetitive.
I recall at least one paper by Attard et al where the pre-combustion chamber did not contain a supplementary injector - operating instead with the same mixture as the main chamber (stoichiometric in the paper (a Rotax engine IIRC)). The system still offers the benefit of rapid combustion although not the ultra-lean AFR.

Such a system could conceivably operate at say lambda 1.2 - 1.4 in the pre-chamber, with DI stratification producing a much leaner mixture in the regions further from the pre-chamber. So - only one injector per cylinder.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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diego.liv wrote:Italian motorsport is a bit late, but still..Didn't recall if i read about Mahle TJI, i'll post on here..tryed Google translator, i miss the speficic terminology, so sorry in advnce whenever i missed/inverted terms

http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/motori ... la-734987/

The current 6 cylinders have not yet arrived to self charging in order to be used as diesel, but research is oriented towards that direction. Now the focus is on PPC, namely the stratification of the charge with multi injections.

Difficult to find the leveling of engines

Who believes that the escalation of the powers has come to the limit of the materials you are mistaken, because the expectations of the technicians there is the ambition to churn out engines capable of a performance capable of going beyond the 50% significantly improving their efficiency. Where you can get it is hard to say, but the challenge is not only aimed to win the Grand Prix, how to industrialize the solutions that will revolutionize the market of the engines in the series product, the hypercar to the utility.
The ambition is to get to a petrol engine to operate as if they were diesel, removing the spark plug because you want to get to self-charge with the increase in pressure in the room. All carmakers are working on this ground, but no one has yet solved the problem. The first to arrive at the solution ... will have in hand the market.

HCCI: goal not yet reached
Sort of a weak article. He just copied information from Mark Hughes, whose article was also not that strong.

For all the journo's reading this page...I have said it once and I will say it again... There is a two injector loop hole... you heard it here!
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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Two injectors can be used in these engines.
One injector may be at the outer edge of the top of the cylinder and the other can be between the valves.
The regulations permit such an arrangement.
For Sure!!

R_GoWin
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Joined: 21 Dec 2014, 10:51
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
diego.liv wrote:Italian motorsport is a bit late, but still..Didn't recall if i read about Mahle TJI, i'll post on here..tryed Google translator, i miss the speficic terminology, so sorry in advnce whenever i missed/inverted terms

http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/motori ... la-734987/

The current 6 cylinders have not yet arrived to self charging in order to be used as diesel, but research is oriented towards that direction. Now the focus is on PPC, namely the stratification of the charge with multi injections.

Difficult to find the leveling of engines

Who believes that the escalation of the powers has come to the limit of the materials you are mistaken, because the expectations of the technicians there is the ambition to churn out engines capable of a performance capable of going beyond the 50% significantly improving their efficiency. Where you can get it is hard to say, but the challenge is not only aimed to win the Grand Prix, how to industrialize the solutions that will revolutionize the market of the engines in the series product, the hypercar to the utility.
The ambition is to get to a petrol engine to operate as if they were diesel, removing the spark plug because you want to get to self-charge with the increase in pressure in the room. All carmakers are working on this ground, but no one has yet solved the problem. The first to arrive at the solution ... will have in hand the market.

HCCI: goal not yet reached
Sort of a weak article. He just copied information from Mark Hughes, whose article was also not that strong.

For all the journo's reading this page...I have said it once and I will say it again... There is a two injector loop hole... you heard it here!
:lol: :lol:
To be honest - that article did look a bit like the last few pages on this forum being summaried!

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I have a question. With Jet Igniton and running a leaner mixture at full throttle , with fuel rate fixed (100kg/hr) this means pumping more air. Does this mean, that enabeling Jet Ignition, also needs a bigger turbo?

Everybody noticed the Merc compressor being huge.

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ME4ME
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Joined: 19 Dec 2014, 16:37

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
rscsr wrote:At first I thought the dry ice idea was complete bogus. But since they use about 2kg fuel per lap and you need about 30kg air to burn it. With 1kg (about 1l) of dry ice at -78°C you could cool the air (of 30°C) to about 26,5°C.
I think there are some problems with your calculation. 1 kg of dry ice requires about 700 kJ of energy to evaporate. 30 kg of air will cool by about 23 *C when 700 kJ is removed.

You assumed an AFR of 15:1 - it is probably much higher than that - perhaps as high as 30:1. Even at 60 kg/lap the air temperature would reduce by 11.6 *C.
Let's approach this from a practical point of view, rscsr seems to imply that the 30°C ambient air is cooled using dry ice. I don't know if the actual air going into the airbox is ment, or the air cooling the intercooler-radiator in the sidepod. I guess the latter, obviously you wouldn't want the CO2 gas going right into your engine.

But cooling the intercooler-radiator doesn't seem very effective to me. Not with water-to-air systems being used by Mercedes and Ferrari anyway. Why not just cool the fluid directly through conduction? Or even better, skip the dry ice and drain the intercooler-fluid and re-fill with cold fluid before each qualifying run.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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ME4ME wrote:
gruntguru wrote:
rscsr wrote:At first I thought the dry ice idea was complete bogus. But since they use about 2kg fuel per lap and you need about 30kg air to burn it. With 1kg (about 1l) of dry ice at -78°C you could cool the air (of 30°C) to about 26,5°C.
I think there are some problems with your calculation. 1 kg of dry ice requires about 700 kJ of energy to evaporate. 30 kg of air will cool by about 23 *C when 700 kJ is removed.

You assumed an AFR of 15:1 - it is probably much higher than that - perhaps as high as 30:1. Even at 60 kg/lap the air temperature would reduce by 11.6 *C.
Let's approach this from a practical point of view, rscsr seems to imply that the 30°C ambient air is cooled using dry ice. I don't know if the actual air going into the airbox is ment, or the air cooling the intercooler-radiator in the sidepod. I guess the latter, obviously you wouldn't want the CO2 gas going right into your engine.

But cooling the intercooler-radiator doesn't seem very effective to me. Not with water-to-air systems being used by Mercedes and Ferrari anyway. Why not just cool the fluid directly through conduction? Or even better, skip the dry ice and drain the intercooler-fluid and re-fill with cold fluid before each qualifying run.
Cold fluid has nowhere near the cooling potential of sublimating dry ice (700+ kJ/kg). For comparison 1 kg of cold water absorbs 4 kJ for each *C you warm it up.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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NL_Fer wrote:I have a question. With Jet Igniton and running a leaner mixture at full throttle , with fuel rate fixed (100kg/hr) this means pumping more air. Does this mean, that enabeling Jet Ignition, also needs a bigger turbo?
Yes. However I am certain that everyone was running very lean (>1.4) even without TJI. The benefits of TJI are more than just leaner operation - you also have faster combustion and less tendency to detonate so even at lambda 1.4, TJI offers significant improvement in efficiency.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I believe this forbids the use of dry ice on the car when it is on track:

7.6 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the charge air, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.14.

PhillipM
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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It's not a fluid....

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Only after it evaporates. :D
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