Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Tommy Cookers wrote:the energy balance chart is misleading (in suggesting the relative efficiency of HLSI) showing the HLSI benefitting at low power from the absence of throttling vs the stoichiometric engine suffering by throttling to the same low power
I disagree. The pumping loss is 3.1% for the stoich' engine and 0.9% for the HLSI - a difference of only 2.2%. If this was added to the HLSI engine losses the TE would still be 37.7% vs 33.7% for the stoich' engine.
je suis charlie

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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I have some pictures of the build state of the new (current - taken 3 days ago) Honda building in Milton Keynes, if anyone's interested. Not sure this is the right thread - can someone advise please?

Craig

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote:I have some pictures of the build state of the new (current - taken 3 days ago) Honda building in Milton Keynes, if anyone's interested. Not sure this is the right thread - can someone advise please?

Craig
Why not....
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
Craigy wrote:I have some pictures of the build state of the new (current - taken 3 days ago) Honda building in Milton Keynes, if anyone's interested. Not sure this is the right thread - can someone advise please?

Craig
Why not....
Google maps link: https://goo.gl/maps/oRtEVEP6XKv

Old building - just noticed that these breather pipes are there (presumably for underground fuel tanks)
Image

Old building scale versus a shipping container
Image

New building - directly across the street from the old building (camera simply turned 90º to the left)
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New building much longer than old one
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New building
Image

McL-H
McL-H
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Joined: 17 May 2016, 16:18

Re: Honda Power Unit

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According to this Spanish website, Boullier has said that the Honda engine is in between that of Mercedes and Ferrari (if I understand correctly). Now, I notice I have problems believing what Boullier says, as according to Fernando their chassis is also better than Ferrari's. If both chassis and engine are better, then why is McLaren behind them? Is there any data that backs up these supposed comments of Boullier?

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/05/17/fo ... 70714.html

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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McL-H wrote:According to this Spanish website, Boullier has said that the Honda engine is in between that of Mercedes and Ferrari (if I understand correctly). Now, I notice I have problems believing what Boullier says, as according to Fernando their chassis is also better than Ferrari's. If both chassis and engine are better, then why is McLaren behind them? Is there any data that backs up these supposed comments of Boullier?

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/05/17/fo ... 70714.html
The original article:
http://www.speedweek.com/formel1/news/9 ... rrari.html

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diffuser
240
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote:
McL-H wrote:According to this Spanish website, Boullier has said that the Honda engine is in between that of Mercedes and Ferrari (if I understand correctly). Now, I notice I have problems believing what Boullier says, as according to Fernando their chassis is also better than Ferrari's. If both chassis and engine are better, then why is McLaren behind them? Is there any data that backs up these supposed comments of Boullier?

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/05/17/fo ... 70714.html
The original article:
http://www.speedweek.com/formel1/news/9 ... rrari.html
I think he means between Merc 12016 and Ferrari 2014!

Sonador
Sonador
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Joined: 06 May 2016, 17:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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They are the third best car in sector 3 of Barcelona according to Alonso.

The engine i think they are talking about ICE output, not combined hybrid power.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:the energy balance chart is misleading (in suggesting the relative efficiency of HLSI) showing the HLSI benefitting at low power from the absence of throttling vs the stoichiometric engine suffering by throttling to the same low power
I disagree. The pumping loss is 3.1% for the stoich' engine and 0.9% for the HLSI - a difference of only 2.2%. If this was added to the HLSI engine losses the TE would still be 37.7% vs 33.7% for the stoich' engine.
the stoich engine is also suffering a thermodynamic penalty with throttling
ie iirc the CR is set for WOT mep, and so is sub-optimal for the lower (throttled) mep

this HLSI seems almost an intentional step too far, judging by the incomplete and/or inconsistent combustion (and Honda didn't say otherwise)
the continuously-controlled preheating of the mixture is presumably in effect an alternative to TJI

the conventional light aircraft engine has for decades been runnable like this, by non-standard use of the leaning control
(standard use being leaning only to the threshold of power reduction)
as the leaning control is over-ranged at lower altitudes, being made also to compensate for the natural richening effect of altitude


but boosted TJI engines seem to have more potential for lean running (than N/A engines)

fellowhoodlums
fellowhoodlums
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sonador wrote:They are the third best car in sector 3 of Barcelona according to Alonso.

The engine i think they are talking about ICE output, not combined hybrid power.
Completely agree. Keep going on about chassis being as good as top two, the power as good as top 3 so if that's the case, why 9th/10th??

Can only be the hybrid element left to blame and if deployment fixed then it's telling me it's heat and the mgu-h.

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KingHamilton01
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Joined: 08 Jun 2012, 17:12

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I don't understand why Honda didn't have there upgraded engine here ready to evaluate it? surely that way they could decide if it would be worthwhile introducing or going away to change anything they are not happy with. Basically if there Honda upgrade isn't bigger than Renault's then could mean work's team will be in a position to Challenge McLaren again?
McLaren Mercedes

hurril
hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: Honda Power Unit

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KingHamilton01 wrote:I don't understand why Honda didn't have there upgraded engine here ready to evaluate it? surely that way they could decide if it would be worthwhile introducing or going away to change anything they are not happy with. Basically if there Honda upgrade isn't bigger than Renault's then could mean work's team will be in a position to Challenge McLaren again?
Maybe it is not ... done?

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

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As long as the turbo machinery is in the vee they'll be down on MGU-H power vs. Merc/Ferrari, won't they?

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sonador wrote:They are the third best car in sector 3 of Barcelona according to Alonso.

The engine i think they are talking about ICE output, not combined hybrid power.
If their peak power + chassis is so good Mclaren should've been blistering fast in qualifying.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
gruntguru wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:the energy balance chart is misleading (in suggesting the relative efficiency of HLSI) showing the HLSI benefitting at low power from the absence of throttling vs the stoichiometric engine suffering by throttling to the same low power
I disagree. The pumping loss is 3.1% for the stoich' engine and 0.9% for the HLSI - a difference of only 2.2%. If this was added to the HLSI engine losses the TE would still be 37.7% vs 33.7% for the stoich' engine.
the stoich engine is also suffering a thermodynamic penalty with throttling, ie iirc the CR is set for WOT mep, and so is sub-optimal for the lower (throttled) mep
I doubt there is any "sneakiness" in this publication - it is reasonable to assume that the same engine was used for each set of results and the CR was optimised for WOT operation at normal rich mixture. The HLSI engine has greater losses in the areas of unburned fuel and exhaust heat so it is unlikely the CR is higher. The main advantage is heat loss to the cylinder ("other" plus "water") being 30.7% vs 40.5% - this being almost entirely attributable to the reduced cycle temperature with double the air mass.
this HLSI seems almost an intentional step too far, judging by the incomplete and/or inconsistent combustion (and Honda didn't say otherwise)
More likely the leaning was increased to the point of best TE and NOx reduction. (EDIT. I have checked the paper and that is the case - AFR 30 gave best TE.)
the continuously-controlled preheating of the mixture is presumably in effect an alternative to TJI
The preheating would certainly improve the flame speed but not to the extent possible with TJI. Detonation control would not be as good as TJI either.
but boosted TJI engines seem to have more potential for lean running (than N/A engines)
What is your basis for that? Certainly boosted engines are more likely to benefit from detonation suppression but a NA engine with very high CR would be a good candidate. (I suppose such engines are not out there waiting for TJI to be added so researchers are limited to increasing CR on an existing engine - the result being a sub-optimal combustion chamber shape.)
je suis charlie