Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
stevesingo
stevesingo
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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KingHamilton01 wrote:I don't understand why Honda didn't have there upgraded engine here ready to evaluate it? surely that way they could decide if it would be worthwhile introducing or going away to change anything they are not happy with. Basically if there Honda upgrade isn't bigger than Renault's then could mean work's team will be in a position to Challenge McLaren again?
Maybe because you can do three full weekends worth of running in 24hrs on a dyno, And during testing you will do 5-6hrs.

Poor reliability would also effect aero/chassis development. Too much risk.

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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They need track time more than others.

Still don't see why Honda did not try using an Lmp1 chassis as a mule. McLaren should have built an lmp1 car rather than the MP4-29h

Maybe the programme is underfunded on both sides.

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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FW17 wrote:They need track time more than others.

Still don't see why Honda did not try using an Lmp1 chassis as a mule. McLaren should have built an lmp1 car rather than the MP4-29h

Maybe the programme is underfunded on both sides.
Unless it's representative running, what would it give you that a dyno can't?
By representative, I mean with the g-forces/vibration/heat conditions etc that the F1 car experiences.

Sonador
Sonador
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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When you go back to the beginning, while they were making the engine (2014) they were still building new dyno's.
So back then they should have done like a lmp1 car.

But now it has no value because of the dyno's i think.

When you supply another team i would go a different route to the size zero concept.
Just to confirm or see, but i dont think Honda is eager to do such a thing (huge resources/budget)

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FW17
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Not sure if there is a dyno that simulates g forces and race car vibrations.

Even if the second is taken care of the first is very doubtful.

A race car will also give some indication on the drivability of the engine even if the tyre simulation is going to be difficult. Still they can use a very hard tyre to tune the engine.

An lmp 1 mule can be made quiet close to an f1car in terms of weight and down force levels. Would have been a good tool for the development team rather than keeping everything indoors.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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McL-H wrote:According to this Spanish website, Boullier has said that the Honda engine is in between that of Mercedes and Ferrari (if I understand correctly). Now, I notice I have problems believing what Boullier says, as according to Fernando their chassis is also better than Ferrari's. If both chassis and engine are better, then why is McLaren behind them? Is there any data that backs up these supposed comments of Boullier?

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/05/17/fo ... 70714.html
No, he does not say Honda PU is between Mercedes and Ferrari, he sais that but refering only to peak power, wich is completely different

Hard to believe anycase , but I see no reason to affirm it is false, it could be true but a PU must provide a lot more things than peak power, like driveability, energy harvesting, fuel economy.... If Honda provide good peak power but is weak on the rest, then it is a poor PU overall, as we all see on track.

Not saying this is the case, but I wouldn´t say the contrary either, everything is posible

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:
but boosted TJI engines seem to have more potential for lean running (than N/A engines)
What is your basis for that? Certainly boosted engines are more likely to benefit from detonation suppression but a NA engine with very high CR would be a good candidate. (I suppose such engines are not out there waiting for TJI to be added so researchers are limited to increasing CR on an existing engine - the result being a sub-optimal combustion chamber shape.)
N/A lean (to this extent) running means the engine is unnecessarily big for its power, relative to the boosted equivalent
(unless only part-time lean run, but this then needs NOx treatment)
that's why we have this F1, because of the potential of boosted SI full-time lean running
such engines are in production for use with gas fuel and correspondingly higher AFR
the traditional need for lowered CR with boost has effectively gone (because of the great dilution of heat)
boosted CR is as high as is useful or useable and the mechanical efficiency is higher

and one could from some of the numerous research papers form an impression that the boosted engine can be run leaner

btw - people forget that some engines have been made throttled at full power so that CR can be higher than otherwise
power control being of course initially by leaning and opening the throttle, this then followed by conventional throttling
Honda must have tried this

btw - a compound piston engine .....
with a small HP stage burning a super-rich liquid fuel mixture exhausting gas with high methane and CO content ...
could with additional air burn this gas in a larger LP stage at greater AFR than possible with liquid fuel
a higher-aromatic fuel (eg European-market gasoline) would be best at this (stripping carbon from gasoline to make methane and more CO)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 18 May 2016, 12:23, edited 4 times in total.

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Postmoe
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Andres125sx wrote:
McL-H wrote:According to this Spanish website, Boullier has said that the Honda engine is in between that of Mercedes and Ferrari (if I understand correctly). Now, I notice I have problems believing what Boullier says, as according to Fernando their chassis is also better than Ferrari's. If both chassis and engine are better, then why is McLaren behind them? Is there any data that backs up these supposed comments of Boullier?

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/05/17/fo ... 70714.html
No, he does not say Honda PU is between Mercedes and Ferrari, he sais that but refering only to peak power, wich is completely different

Hard to believe anycase , but I see no reason to affirm it is false, it could be true but a PU must provide a lot more things than peak power, like driveability, energy harvesting, fuel economy.... If Honda provide good peak power but is weak on the rest, then it is a poor PU overall, as we all see on track.

Not saying this is the case, but I wouldn´t say the contrary either, everything is posible
IMO they have good peak power since Abu Dhabi 2015. In every single occasion they had the option to run rich they nailed top 5 laptimes, isolated or during 2-3 laps.

Even yesterday they apparently did a strong laptime on a set of mediums and then improved on super softs.

So there is a fair possibility of strong peak power, the problem is that this is a lean combustion formula and they entered it with a focus on aero and raw performance. It's not that it's a bad thing to have it, it's the chosen order of progression which is uterly wrong. It was the other way around, so they would have had a normal 2016 with only aero refinements to be done.

If they get combustion right in Canada, it can be even a big suprise for them in terms of layout. I bet that even Mercedes has been surprised by their own numbers at some point.

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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FW17 wrote:Not sure if there is a dyno that simulates g forces and race car vibrations.
Obviously this has limitations and I don't know if Honda use something like it, but this exists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuleS9rnzc

(For those who can't/don't want to look at the video, it's an engine dyno on a gimbal, with the engine experiencing simulation of some of the forces it would experience on a track).

Short of a very large machine (1:1 track-sized) it'd be impossible to simulate perfectly in terms of G, so there will always be limitations in this regard, but then again there'd also be limitations in that LMP1 cars can't do extreme braking/cornering forces as extreme as F1 cars can.

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote: Obviously this has limitations and I don't know if Honda use something like it, but this exists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuleS9rnzc

Great find. More reasons why a company with expertise of Porshe VW should join F1.

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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F1 has been terribly unfair to Honda and Mclaren mainly because of progress made by Mercedes

There progress through the last 12 months has been anything but phenomenal

Barcelona qualifying.

2015
Nico 1:24.681
Fernando: 1:27.760

Last year we were three seconds off.

2016

Lewis:: 1:22.000
Fernando:: 1:23.981

McLaren have GAINED approximately four seconds.
Mercedes have GAINED 2.6 seconds.

PS: some correction needs to be made for soft tyres used this year

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Juzh
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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FW17 wrote:F1 has been terribly unfair to Honda and Mclaren mainly because of progress made by Mercedes

There progress through the last 12 months has been anything but phenomenal

Barcelona qualifying.

2015
Nico 1:24.681
Fernando: 1:27.760

Last year we were three seconds off.

2016

Lewis:: 1:22.000
Fernando:: 1:23.981

McLaren have GAINED approximately four seconds.
Mercedes have GAINED 2.6 seconds.

PS: some correction needs to be made for soft tyres used this year
Relative gain compared to mercedes is the same. Soft tires or not.

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mclaren111
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Yusuke Hasegawa:

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5657 ... s_in_2017/


There is hope [-o< [-o< [-o<

enkidu1978
enkidu1978
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Joined: 11 Jun 2014, 12:24

Re: Honda Power Unit

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mclaren111 wrote:Yusuke Hasegawa:

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5657 ... s_in_2017/


There is hope [-o< [-o< [-o<
“We have a plan to challenge Mercedes in 2017,” he continued. “We are working to have a competitive car so that Fernando Alonso can win.”
I kind of have a sick feeling about this comment though... No Jenson button?

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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enkidu1978 wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:Yusuke Hasegawa:

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/5657 ... s_in_2017/


There is hope [-o< [-o< [-o<
“We have a plan to challenge Mercedes in 2017,” he continued. “We are working to have a competitive car so that Fernando Alonso can win.”
I kind of have a sick feeling about this comment though... No Jenson button?
I dont understand your question?
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