Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

So they won't spend any tokens until then? Because it's going to cost between 10-12 tokens to do that. Looks like they're going to go for broke, maybe introduce a 2 token upgrade for Canada to try to hold them over until Spa or Silverstone if they get anxious and fast track what they're planning. It's important to weigh their options carefully because making a wrong move could not just have them going backwards but compromise the power unit evolution for next year.

Next year they are guaranteed to make good gains simply because they'll basically be able to introduce a bespoke power unit every 5 races with zero carry over if required. That amount of freedom really lets your manufacturing power shine.

[gruntguru]

. . compromise the power unit evolution for next year.

Next year . . . . they'll be able to introduce a bespoke power unit every 5 races . .

You don't see a contradiction?

[godlameroso]

No, Let's say you go backwards this year, this is going to affect lead time for next year because you have to correct the mistake you made. Lead time on engines isn't like a wing it takes more than 8 weeks, you know this. Average time between races is 2 weeks, that gives you 10 weeks lead time, that's not a lot between engines. If you don't already have a good direction you're simply wasting time, look at what happened to Renault last year.

[wuzak]

Honda could be on pair whit Ferrari PU if they had 40 tokens right now.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/156 ... ken-system

Assuming that Ferrari would not improve without the token system?

[mclaren111]

Wuzak:

Assuming that Ferrari would not improve without the token system?

He is merely stating the token "cost" to match Ferrari.

[PhillipM]

No, Let's say you go backwards this year, this is going to affect lead time for next year because you have to correct the mistake you made. Lead time on engines isn't like a wing it takes more than 8 weeks, you know this. Average time between races is 2 weeks, that gives you 10 weeks lead time, that's not a lot between engines. If you don't already have a good direction you're simply wasting time, look at what happened to Renault last year.

But if you're going to risk a development step you're not certain about, earlier this year is better from a lead time perspective, as it gives you a lot of time to learn from it, learn why it didn't work, and correct it for the first 'unlimited' engine next year.

[Andres125sx]

Honda could be on pair whit Ferrari PU if they had 40 tokens right now.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/156 ... ken-system

After reading I get the feeling Honda has prepared various PUs with different modifications to evaluate wich one provides the biggest step forward, but they´ve not decided yet what is the best. Probably because they need new fuel to evaluate first.

If I´m correct, I´d love to know what are those modifications on each one

[Andres125sx]

So basically "forget 2016, maybe 2017.... "

That is a surprise for someone at this point of 2016?

[Thunder]

So basically "forget 2016, maybe 2017.... "

That is a surprise for someone at this point of 2016?

No, but it is a surprise to hear him state it so bluntly.

[GoranF1]

Honda considers radical revamp for 2017 engine

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... ne-738518/

Honda to give McLaren upgraded F1 engine for Monaco or Canada

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -or-canada

[Sasha]

It looks like at the moment... a complete whole new PU for 2017.

With Honda F1 Boss stating they need 45 tokens to get their PU to match the top PU in the series explains why.

So for the moment they are stuck because they only have 14 tokens left this year.

They are testing different upgrades(mis-matching them,improvements with existing TC,moving Compressor to the rear,new MGU-H,new CC) at the moment.

My guess for upgrades...... new CC 100% ,new MGU-H 50% or new Turbine to better match new CC 50%
I think they can't do new MGU-H and new Turbine with new CC,must pick one or the other because of the few remaining tokens.

[ME4ME]

This might not be a populair view, but I would like to express it anyway:

Mclaren-Honda should stop making excuses.

IF they'd entered in 2016, not 2015, they'd be more prepared. IF they could use unlimited fuel, they could push harder every lap. IF there was no token system, they would beat Ferrari.

I mean, all these statements might or might not be true. But none of them currently matter. They are bound by the same fuel limit, and thus should make it work. They are limited by the same number of tokens, well .. make it work. Renault was very effective with the use of their tokens last winter, it can be done.

To me this 40 token requirement in order to become competitive sounds like another excuse. For so long, they have argued that there was nothing wrong with their PU architecture, Size Zero, the turbo size, or since 2016 their ERS systems. Now they need 40 tokens.

Even the fact they don't know how to go forward indicates the state of indecisiveness they are in. Last year they were saying their ICE was a match for Ferrari's. At that time, it was the ERS system that was holding them back. Now it's their fuel efficiency. To me, this all indicates to a very ineffective development structure. They basically see some numbers that they like, announce it to the world, but cannot make it work as a package. They are nowhere near the effectiveness with wich Mercedes develops its power unit, in the sense that they know what must be done to ultimatly deliver more performance on track.

I sincerely hope that by this time next year, they've found a development direction that works, and finally start to deliver instead of making excuses.

[jure]

This might not be a populair view, but I would like to express it anyway:

Mclaren-Honda should stop making excuses.
...
Renault was very effective with the use of their tokens last winter, it can be done.

To me this 40 token requirement in order to become competitive sounds like another excuse. For so long, they have argued that there was nothing wrong with their PU architecture, Size Zero, the turbo size, or since 2016 their ERS systems. Now they need 40 tokens.

I generally agree, but you should know that Renault has problems with a very small portion of the engine - ice (combustion chamber, injectors,...),.. their ers and general architecture of the engine seem to be ok. And they also used last year's tokens to install larger turbo,.. Honda seems to require large engine architecture redesign and thus large amount of tokens.

That said, it seems Honda wasted last year's tokens for far too small gains. They used them for combustion chamber modification (and some other things??? - can't remember), but they still seem to be a long way behind in this department. I wonder, wouldn't it be wiser to spend last year's tokens right at the end of the year and combine them with this year's tokens. This way, they would have more tokens left for modifications through this year. Last year was a flop anyway.

[AmateurExpert]

Mclaren-Honda should stop making excuses.

IF they'd entered in 2016, not 2015, they'd be more prepared. IF they could use unlimited fuel, they could push harder every lap. IF there was no token system, they would beat Ferrari.

I mean, all these statements might or might not be true.

Regarding the last statement, in this recent interview Hasegawa said:

It is difficult to say but technically speaking our designs are - I can’t say the number - but almost based on the same as the Ferrari level of engine. Although we are not achieving that at the moment.

So if we didn’t have the tokens and we were just adding more parts we could achieve that level I think. But currently to achieve this level we need more than 40 or 50 tokens. So that’s why we have to wait and have to choose which upgrade will be very effective to close the gap

So the engine upgrades that Honda currently have ready could be mature enough to improve the engine up to Ferrari level. The context of the interview being "why aren't Honda delivering upgrades right now?" - he's explaining that they do have upgrades ready (to allay fears that they've sat on their hands all this time), but that they are delaying the upgrade decision in order to optimise the upgrade selection as they can't simply apply them all and as they get them.

I don't think that says "the only reason why the engine isn't beating Ferrari is due to the token constraint".

Hasegawa's explanation is more that they're constrained in the amount of upgrades that can be applied (to the areas that they have tokens available for), rather than the amount of gain they can achieve - the latter is up to Honda's development maturity and upgrade choices. The later they wait, the more upgrades they'll have ready and the better the gain they'll get with each area of token spend.

[DiogoBrand]

I've read today that Honda is considering a complete makeover for next season with the token system removed, maybe even ditching the compact packaging and adopting a Merc split turbo.
Has that really been said by Honda staff or is it the product of an unreliable news website?