Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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carisi2k
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Joined: 15 Oct 2014, 23:26

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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toraabe wrote:
FW17 wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:i cant say the source but i hear Renault has reduced gap to Merceds from 50hp to 20 hp

Is this at 100kg/hr self sustained mode or 90kg/hr (or whatever the likely race fuel flow) self sustained mode?
50 hp up during the winter + 35 hp up on the new spec
that is 85 hp up compared to last year.
Mercedes were smart on putting their people both on Ferrari and Renault f1 engine departments.
And you can see that the Renault engine at last is where it should have been last year...
So now the biggest looser is Toro Rosso.

http://www.formel1.de/news/news/2016-05 ... ate-bringt
Mercedes didn't put their people in Ferrari's and Renault's engine departments. Mercedes had a piece of technology that gave them a huge advantage and now that everybody knows what the technology is and is freely available from Mahle the other engine manufacturers are catching up. Honda will be the last one to put the Mahle system into their engine. Mercedes still have the split turbine advantage as well do not forget.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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carisi2k wrote: Mercedes still have the split turbine advantage as well do not forget.
I get the strong impression that the split turbo is no magic performance bullet. Judging by the RB12 vs W06 packaging, it appears that the rear mounted turbine/compressor allows for a less bulky engine cover and possibly a small aero advantage.

Turbo, if he's around, can probably confirm the packaging pro's and con's in more technically accurate prose than I can.
"In downforce we trust"

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Agreed.
je suis charlie

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Blackout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Taffin said Renault isnt using pre-chambre ignition.
djos wrote: Judging by the RB12 vs W06 packaging, it appears that the rear mounted turbine/compressor allows for a less bulky engine cover and possibly a small aero advantage.
Makes no sense.
And split turbo has so many direct and indirect advantages on the classic turbo (more bulky engine cover, what?) and many benefits on the PU and chassis and we already explained them here many times. What are the classic turbos advantages, if there is any? a part from its "simplicity" and cost there is no advantage.
Needless to say, split turbo has far less drawbacks.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Blackout wrote:
djos wrote: Judging by the RB12 vs W06 packaging, it appears that the rear mounted turbine/compressor allows for a less bulky engine cover and possibly a small aero advantage.
Makes no sense.
And split turbo has so many direct and indirect advantages on the classic turbo (more bulky engine cover, what?) and many benefits on the PU and chassis and we already explained them here many times. What are the classic turbos advantages, if there is any? a part from its "simplicity" and cost there is no advantage.
Needless to say, split turbo has far less drawbacks.
I'm only going on info I've seen here, there is a post I can't find atm showing all the merc powered cars vs the Renault and Ferrari powered cars. All the merc cars have a much chunkier engine cover due to the pu packaging decisions made by Mercedes. Clearly it's not 100% the split turbo but a combination of decisions they've made.
"In downforce we trust"

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Blackout
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Merc cars have chunky engine covers only around the intake manifold/plenum because the Merc engine has a huge one and its not related to the split turbo.

Speaking about the advantages, Illien and Taffin themselves have identified some of the Merc architecture advantages. The swiss says the split turbo does have a cooler compressor and the french says the tubing (turbo-intercooler-engine) is much shorter. Even the exhaust tubing is shorter... and separated from the 'cold' tubes...
And lets not forget the more neutral weight distribution, the smaller/thinner/more undercut gearbox etc

Renault have studied that solution, but did they have the ressources/the ambition to really study it in depth in parallel with other solutions, produce a strong enough turbo-compressor shaft, an adequate MGUH etc? I dont think so...

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Blackout wrote:Merc cars have chunky engine covers only around the intake manifold/plenum because the Merc engine has a huge one and its not related to the split turbo.

Speaking about the advantages, Illien and Taffin themselves have identified some of the Merc architecture advantages. The swiss says the split turbo does have a cooler compressor and the french says the tubing (turbo-intercooler-engine) is much shorter. Even the exhaust tubing is shorter... and separated from the 'cold' tubes...
And lets not forget the more neutral weight distribution, the smaller/thinner/more undercut gearbox etc

Renault have studied that solution, but did they have the ressources/the ambition to really study it in depth in parallel with other solutions, produce a strong enough turbo-compressor shaft, an adequate MGUH etc? I dont think so...
I think the split turbo has a contribution to the intake plenum etc being mounted above the mgu-h, to say it doesn't imo underestimates how much less room Mercedes have in between the V than Renault does.

There's advantages as you point out to this arrangement but it's no magic Bullet and does come with compromises of its own.
"In downforce we trust"

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lio007
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Location: Austria

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Do we already know how much token Renault has spent on the b-spec?

toraabe
toraabe
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Joined: 09 Oct 2014, 10:42

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Blackout wrote:Merc cars have chunky engine covers only around the intake manifold/plenum because the Merc engine has a huge one and its not related to the split turbo.

Speaking about the advantages, Illien and Taffin themselves have identified some of the Merc architecture advantages. The swiss says the split turbo does have a cooler compressor and the french says the tubing (turbo-intercooler-engine) is much shorter. Even the exhaust tubing is shorter... and separated from the 'cold' tubes...
And lets not forget the more neutral weight distribution, the smaller/thinner/more undercut gearbox etc

Renault have studied that solution, but did they have the ressources/the ambition to really study it in depth in parallel with other solutions, produce a strong enough turbo-compressor shaft, an adequate MGUH etc? I dont think so...
Shorter piping, less air resistance hence less pressure drop, less weight because of less piping. And so on.
All this together creates those extra HP. The ICE itself is more or less equal with Ferrari, but is is the accessories that creates the advantage. Im am sure that in 2017 all will run the same layout as Mercedes and what Honda probably will do All the engines will have more or less the same output ...

But back to basics. The new updated Renault engine seems to work perfect in Monaco, since it seems to have excellent drivability ;)

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carisi2k
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Joined: 15 Oct 2014, 23:26

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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djos wrote:
carisi2k wrote: Mercedes still have the split turbine advantage as well do not forget.
I get the strong impression that the split turbo is no magic performance bullet. Judging by the RB12 vs W06 packaging, it appears that the rear mounted turbine/compressor allows for a less bulky engine cover and possibly a small aero advantage.

Turbo, if he's around, can probably confirm the packaging pro's and con's in more technically accurate prose than I can.
I believe you are wrong and just because this new technology is new and the fad of the moment, don't dismiss the benefit of the split turbine to the Mercedes engine. As mentioned beforehand in many other threads the split turbine has packaging and cooling benefits.

Yes the RB12 is slim but the W07 is just as slim.

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carisi2k
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Joined: 15 Oct 2014, 23:26

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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djos wrote:
Blackout wrote:Merc cars have chunky engine covers only around the intake manifold/plenum because the Merc engine has a huge one and its not related to the split turbo.

Speaking about the advantages, Illien and Taffin themselves have identified some of the Merc architecture advantages. The swiss says the split turbo does have a cooler compressor and the french says the tubing (turbo-intercooler-engine) is much shorter. Even the exhaust tubing is shorter... and separated from the 'cold' tubes...
And lets not forget the more neutral weight distribution, the smaller/thinner/more undercut gearbox etc

Renault have studied that solution, but did they have the ressources/the ambition to really study it in depth in parallel with other solutions, produce a strong enough turbo-compressor shaft, an adequate MGUH etc? I dont think so...
I think the split turbo has a contribution to the intake plenum etc being mounted above the mgu-h, to say it doesn't imo underestimates how much less room Mercedes have in between the V than Renault does.

There's advantages as you point out to this arrangement but it's no magic Bullet and does come with compromises of its own.
The Mercedes makes that up with less internal piping and with the mgu-h in the V it means there is more space around the base of the engine. I'm not saying that Mercedes can't turn the engine up. Just that maybe with the recent reliability issues that they may have to choose not to do so even for a single flying lap.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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carisi2k wrote: Yes the RB12 is slim but the W07 is just as slim.
The evidence would suggest otherwise.

Image

Vs

Image
"In downforce we trust"

ReoPTy
ReoPTy
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015, 10:44

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post

toraabe wrote:
FW17 wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:i cant say the source but i hear Renault has reduced gap to Merceds from 50hp to 20 hp

Is this at 100kg/hr self sustained mode or 90kg/hr (or whatever the likely race fuel flow) self sustained mode?
50 hp up during the winter + 35 hp up on the new spec
that is 85 hp up compared to last year.
Mercedes were smart on putting their people both on Ferrari and Renault f1 engine departments.
And you can see that the Renault engine at last is where it should have been last year...
So now the biggest looser is Toro Rosso.

http://www.formel1.de/news/news/2016-05 ... ate-bringt
yes as Pierre godof and most ex renault engineer works out for amg since 5 years?

http://www.industrytap.com/pierre-godof ... tion/35356

would be a fair return of justice? but not , no mercedes input at viry actually

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carisi2k
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Joined: 15 Oct 2014, 23:26

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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djos wrote:
carisi2k wrote: Yes the RB12 is slim but the W07 is just as slim.
The evidence would suggest otherwise.

http://f1.imgci.com/PICTURES/CMS/29200/29225.3.jpg

Vs

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... edbull.jpg
What evidence. All that you are proving with these photo's is that I am correct and you need to get your eyes checked. Those 2 cars look to have very tight packaging.

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djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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carisi2k wrote:
djos wrote:
carisi2k wrote: Yes the RB12 is slim but the W07 is just as slim.
The evidence would suggest otherwise.

http://f1.imgci.com/PICTURES/CMS/29200/29225.3.jpg

Vs

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... edbull.jpg
What evidence. All that you are proving with these photo's is that I am correct and you need to get your eyes checked. Those 2 cars look to have very tight packaging.

Sighs, if you can't see how much narrower the RB12 is then you're the one needing glasses.
"In downforce we trust"