Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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mistrx wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
mistrx wrote:Sorry Turbo but comparing introducing helmets or HANS which don't change the nature of F1 to introducing aeroscreen/or canopy (many are in favor of that) which fundamentally change F1 from open cockpit to closed cockpit series is like comparing apples and oranges.
The irony wants it that drivers and other high profile persons involved with the sport had the exact same objections back when HANS was introduced. Furthermore, current F1 cars are shaped largely because of the crash structures. The long noses and the particular sidepods we have currently? They would look entirely different if the crash structures weren't in place. They changed the nature of F1 as much as canopies would.

Which is a good thing. F1 should not be standing still, but should be front runner in race car tech. The question would bear itself: what is the nature of F1? No aeroscreens? They ran windscreens of similar size during the 60's. No wheel arches? Also ran in F1 a long time ago. F1's nature is that it has no nature. It continually and perpetually mutates and evolves through a combination of evolution and change in the regulations.
Front runner in car tech? Like not using certain materials, variable timing, limiting turbo speeds, limiting ES charge/discharge loads etc...? Well F1 is high tech (and that is aspect I love) but not sure it is front running apart from the aerodynamics part maybe.

For the "F1 shouldn't be standing still" - well I do no support the notion that any change for the sake of change is good. Why doesn't football changes the rules every 2 years? Because simply sometimes you shouldn't change fundamentals that work just for the sake of change.

I know that there were "aeroscreens" back in the day. But since I am not old enough I do not know if that was imposed by rules or explored by teams on individual basis. In my opinion I wouldn't go that avenue because it just makes the drivers more remote from the fans and it also certainly takes away something from the feel of speed for the driver (like driving on motorbike fast behind full windscreen - it is just different - but hey I am not F1 driver)

Since the "nature of F1" is rather subjective I can just state my opinion: open wheel; open cockpit; more power than one can handle; overtaking without gimmicks such as DRS; loud noise; front running tech and innovation; fast cornering speeds; strategy side plays part; car performance comes first - let the "green" BS for Formula E and endurance racing; driving unaided by ABS & traction control etc.; drivers having to have extreme driving + physical skills and bravery to drive on the limit; series where mistake will be punished - no 100m run of areas, no adding chicanes to fast exciting corners, no notion that it is that safe that you walk away on your own every time you hit concrete wall in 300kmh+; you have to say "Wow" when F1 car approaches, it has to be beast, it should give you goose bumps; it should look sleek so it is something your kid puts on a poster in his bedroom; drivers personalities not PR robots. That is my personal idea of "nature of F1"
The way you describe how F1 should be, is actually been a very short period. The first half of the eighties when turbo power or fuel wasn't limited. A fairly short time where engine power outperformed tires, chassis and safety. A bit similar with the 500cc two stroke bikes.

Cars like that, just like the current MotoGP bikes are impossible now. Chassis, motor management and tires are on a better level now.

The buckelling aluminum tubs from then with 1000hp turbo lagged engines was, compared to before and after, more to do with guessing when the power came, then racing on the edge. It does make great heroes (Villeneuve as the best example).

mistrx
mistrx
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 11:24
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

Post

Jolle wrote:
mistrx wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
The irony wants it that drivers and other high profile persons involved with the sport had the exact same objections back when HANS was introduced. Furthermore, current F1 cars are shaped largely because of the crash structures. The long noses and the particular sidepods we have currently? They would look entirely different if the crash structures weren't in place. They changed the nature of F1 as much as canopies would.

Which is a good thing. F1 should not be standing still, but should be front runner in race car tech. The question would bear itself: what is the nature of F1? No aeroscreens? They ran windscreens of similar size during the 60's. No wheel arches? Also ran in F1 a long time ago. F1's nature is that it has no nature. It continually and perpetually mutates and evolves through a combination of evolution and change in the regulations.
Front runner in car tech? Like not using certain materials, variable timing, limiting turbo speeds, limiting ES charge/discharge loads etc...? Well F1 is high tech (and that is aspect I love) but not sure it is front running apart from the aerodynamics part maybe.

For the "F1 shouldn't be standing still" - well I do no support the notion that any change for the sake of change is good. Why doesn't football changes the rules every 2 years? Because simply sometimes you shouldn't change fundamentals that work just for the sake of change.

I know that there were "aeroscreens" back in the day. But since I am not old enough I do not know if that was imposed by rules or explored by teams on individual basis. In my opinion I wouldn't go that avenue because it just makes the drivers more remote from the fans and it also certainly takes away something from the feel of speed for the driver (like driving on motorbike fast behind full windscreen - it is just different - but hey I am not F1 driver)

Since the "nature of F1" is rather subjective I can just state my opinion: open wheel; open cockpit; more power than one can handle; overtaking without gimmicks such as DRS; loud noise; front running tech and innovation; fast cornering speeds; strategy side plays part; car performance comes first - let the "green" BS for Formula E and endurance racing; driving unaided by ABS & traction control etc.; drivers having to have extreme driving + physical skills and bravery to drive on the limit; series where mistake will be punished - no 100m run of areas, no adding chicanes to fast exciting corners, no notion that it is that safe that you walk away on your own every time you hit concrete wall in 300kmh+; you have to say "Wow" when F1 car approaches, it has to be beast, it should give you goose bumps; it should look sleek so it is something your kid puts on a poster in his bedroom; drivers personalities not PR robots. That is my personal idea of "nature of F1"
The way you describe how F1 should be, is actually been a very short period. The first half of the eighties when turbo power or fuel wasn't limited. A fairly short time where engine power outperformed tires, chassis and safety. A bit similar with the 500cc two stroke bikes.

Cars like that, just like the current MotoGP bikes are impossible now. Chassis, motor management and tires are on a better level now.

The buckelling aluminum tubs from then with 1000hp turbo lagged engines was, compared to before and after, more to do with guessing when the power came, then racing on the edge. It does make great heroes (Villeneuve as the best example).
Good post, you described it pretty well. It was sadly only a short period. And yes, I know that you can't stop the development. But I think there should be some certain limits that one shouldn't cross in order not to fundamentally change something. And certainly I wouldn't go the absolutely opposite direction of what I described as my ideal/DNA of F1.

There is one thing I can't understand - the F1 cars, circuits, equipment are some much safer and healthcare much more developed than they were. So logic implies there should be more close racing and drivers taking more risks as the risks of injury/death are lower and benefits of driving on the limits are thus higher. Yet you have regulation that prohibits the driver from proper defending and proper overtaking. For the sake of safety. You have one bold overtake and people get crazy these days. You shut the doors on competitor and you are almost crucified. You have rain shower and the race starts behind the safety car. You get Masss's freak accident few years back, Bianchi's tractor on the track, Button's manhole cover incident (looking at it from the point of statistics you get to quite a low chance of that happening again) and people demand fighter jet-like canopies!Everything for the sake of safety. What is next? Safety bubbles for the drivers out of the car? They can slip on the way to the podium you know...

Everything is safer yet you can't properly push the envelope. Then I ask - what is the point of all of this "safety madness"? If it is the legendary "saving one life is worth everything" then that reason is not strong enough for me - for reason I described in my previous posts.

Jolle
Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

Post

mistrx wrote:
Jolle wrote:
mistrx wrote:
Front runner in car tech? Like not using certain materials, variable timing, limiting turbo speeds, limiting ES charge/discharge loads etc...? Well F1 is high tech (and that is aspect I love) but not sure it is front running apart from the aerodynamics part maybe.

For the "F1 shouldn't be standing still" - well I do no support the notion that any change for the sake of change is good. Why doesn't football changes the rules every 2 years? Because simply sometimes you shouldn't change fundamentals that work just for the sake of change.

I know that there were "aeroscreens" back in the day. But since I am not old enough I do not know if that was imposed by rules or explored by teams on individual basis. In my opinion I wouldn't go that avenue because it just makes the drivers more remote from the fans and it also certainly takes away something from the feel of speed for the driver (like driving on motorbike fast behind full windscreen - it is just different - but hey I am not F1 driver)

Since the "nature of F1" is rather subjective I can just state my opinion: open wheel; open cockpit; more power than one can handle; overtaking without gimmicks such as DRS; loud noise; front running tech and innovation; fast cornering speeds; strategy side plays part; car performance comes first - let the "green" BS for Formula E and endurance racing; driving unaided by ABS & traction control etc.; drivers having to have extreme driving + physical skills and bravery to drive on the limit; series where mistake will be punished - no 100m run of areas, no adding chicanes to fast exciting corners, no notion that it is that safe that you walk away on your own every time you hit concrete wall in 300kmh+; you have to say "Wow" when F1 car approaches, it has to be beast, it should give you goose bumps; it should look sleek so it is something your kid puts on a poster in his bedroom; drivers personalities not PR robots. That is my personal idea of "nature of F1"
The way you describe how F1 should be, is actually been a very short period. The first half of the eighties when turbo power or fuel wasn't limited. A fairly short time where engine power outperformed tires, chassis and safety. A bit similar with the 500cc two stroke bikes.

Cars like that, just like the current MotoGP bikes are impossible now. Chassis, motor management and tires are on a better level now.

The buckelling aluminum tubs from then with 1000hp turbo lagged engines was, compared to before and after, more to do with guessing when the power came, then racing on the edge. It does make great heroes (Villeneuve as the best example).
Good post, you described it pretty well. It was sadly only a short period. And yes, I know that you can't stop the development. But I think there should be some certain limits that one shouldn't cross in order not to fundamentally change something. And certainly I wouldn't go the absolutely opposite direction of what I described as my ideal/DNA of F1.

There is one thing I can't understand - the F1 cars, circuits, equipment are some much safer and healthcare much more developed than they were. So logic implies there should be more close racing and drivers taking more risks as the risks of injury/death are lower and benefits of driving on the limits are thus higher. Yet you have regulation that prohibits the driver from proper defending and proper overtaking. For the sake of safety. You have one bold overtake and people get crazy these days. You shut the doors on competitor and you are almost crucified. You have rain shower and the race starts behind the safety car. You get Masss's freak accident few years back, Bianchi's tractor on the track, Button's manhole cover incident (looking at it from the point of statistics you get to quite a low chance of that happening again) and people demand fighter jet-like canopies!Everything for the sake of safety. What is next? Safety bubbles for the drivers out of the car? They can slip on the way to the podium you know...

Everything is safer yet you can't properly push the envelope. Then I ask - what is the point of all of this "safety madness"? If it is the legendary "saving one life is worth everything" then that reason is not strong enough for me - for reason I described in my previous posts.
I think, most of all, the racing and drivers developed quite rapidly as well. Drivers back then took less risks, because a crash would hurt or kill them. Again that difference between driving really fast and racing. Gilles was a real racer for instance and that is what killed him. Not enough margin.
Drivers themselves got a lot better, look how many real big talents just waiting for a place.

Thinking of it, it's more or less the introduction of the carbon tub that made the biggest difference and gave people like Senna, Prost and Mansell the opportunities that the generation before them never took. Close and constant wheel to wheel overtaking (Villeneuve again as the exemption).

So, more safety: more close racing.

Jolle
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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I think you can break down general safety in three major areas: equipment (car, helmets, etc), track and rules/protocols.

Jules wouldn't be dead if they had a VSC at the moment
Senna and Villeneuve would be alive if they had a '16 car
Clark would be alive on a modern track

It's an ongoing process on all of these areas. The last few fatalities where equipment was "to blame", a blow to the head by a heavy object was the cause. It's just logical that is the next step in the ongoing evolution.

mrluke
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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You are just pushing for a historic nostalgia series "just keep it like it is now forever"

If f1 keeps open wheel, open cockpit and massive tyres then another series will ultimately have faster lap times.

Lmp1 is already knocking on the door, with more impressive electric and doing it for 24 hours rather than 2.

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CmdrVOODOO
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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While I believe, and I have no doubt the FIA believes, the Red Bull windscreen solution is the safer (and better looking) solution, it probably alters cooling and aero too much to be implemented properly for 2017 this late into 2016.

The Ferrari version of the Halo was to test how much it interfered with vision more than anything when they used it during testing. The Mercedes concept was a heck of a lot better looking and looked to be more of a refined design. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe 2 things will happen moving forward; the Halos we see on the cars in 2017 will be more like the better looking Mercedes concept, and when there is more time in the future to work with the aero/cooling issues the windscreen creates, the FIA will move to that safer solution.

Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong and for the next 2 decades we'll see all 22 cars sporting thong straps that they drivers will have painted to match their helmets because we'll no longer be able to see who's driving the car!

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FW17
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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Indycar to use the Aeroscreen for 2017

Hope they contract Red Bull technologies to do the design work that can then be implemented by Dallara to save time

Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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FW17 wrote:Indycar to use the Aeroscreen for 2017

Hope they contract Red Bull technologies to do the design work that can then be implemented by Dallara to save time
I'll bet that they will regret that decision when, just before a 200mph turn on an oval a guy in front blows their engine. Indycar hasn't had the best track record the last few seasons with safety decision about the cars.

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dmjunqueira
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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FW17 wrote:Indycar to use the Aeroscreen for 2017

Hope they contract Red Bull technologies to do the design work that can then be implemented by Dallara to save time
Bravo! =D>
At least they won't use a half-arsed solution like F1...

graham.reeds
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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dmjunqueira wrote:
FW17 wrote:Indycar to use the Aeroscreen for 2017

Hope they contract Red Bull technologies to do the design work that can then be implemented by Dallara to save time
Bravo! =D>
At least they won't use a half-arsed solution like F1...
Talking of half arsing, am I the only one who thinks the halo looks like a toilet seat from above? You could have great merriment by having a photo of a deposit on top of a driver's helmet.

ojlopez
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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graham.reeds wrote:
dmjunqueira wrote:
FW17 wrote:Indycar to use the Aeroscreen for 2017

Hope they contract Red Bull technologies to do the design work that can then be implemented by Dallara to save time
Bravo! =D>
At least they won't use a half-arsed solution like F1...
Talking of half arsing, am I the only one who thinks the halo looks like a toilet seat from above? You could have great merriment by having a photo of a deposit on top of a driver's helmet.
I think it looks more like a thong, maybe Bernie thinks it makes the cars look sexier? :mrgreen:

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Cuky
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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Ferrari to test revised HALO system tomorrow on one of their cars. The new version is expected to be smaller then one seen in pre-season testing

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... -2-793544/

ojlopez
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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mistrx wrote:
Jolle wrote:
mistrx wrote:
Front runner in car tech? Like not using certain materials, variable timing, limiting turbo speeds, limiting ES charge/discharge loads etc...? Well F1 is high tech (and that is aspect I love) but not sure it is front running apart from the aerodynamics part maybe.

For the "F1 shouldn't be standing still" - well I do no support the notion that any change for the sake of change is good. Why doesn't football changes the rules every 2 years? Because simply sometimes you shouldn't change fundamentals that work just for the sake of change.

I know that there were "aeroscreens" back in the day. But since I am not old enough I do not know if that was imposed by rules or explored by teams on individual basis. In my opinion I wouldn't go that avenue because it just makes the drivers more remote from the fans and it also certainly takes away something from the feel of speed for the driver (like driving on motorbike fast behind full windscreen - it is just different - but hey I am not F1 driver)

Since the "nature of F1" is rather subjective I can just state my opinion: open wheel; open cockpit; more power than one can handle; overtaking without gimmicks such as DRS; loud noise; front running tech and innovation; fast cornering speeds; strategy side plays part; car performance comes first - let the "green" BS for Formula E and endurance racing; driving unaided by ABS & traction control etc.; drivers having to have extreme driving + physical skills and bravery to drive on the limit; series where mistake will be punished - no 100m run of areas, no adding chicanes to fast exciting corners, no notion that it is that safe that you walk away on your own every time you hit concrete wall in 300kmh+; you have to say "Wow" when F1 car approaches, it has to be beast, it should give you goose bumps; it should look sleek so it is something your kid puts on a poster in his bedroom; drivers personalities not PR robots. That is my personal idea of "nature of F1"
The way you describe how F1 should be, is actually been a very short period. The first half of the eighties when turbo power or fuel wasn't limited. A fairly short time where engine power outperformed tires, chassis and safety. A bit similar with the 500cc two stroke bikes.

Cars like that, just like the current MotoGP bikes are impossible now. Chassis, motor management and tires are on a better level now.

The buckelling aluminum tubs from then with 1000hp turbo lagged engines was, compared to before and after, more to do with guessing when the power came, then racing on the edge. It does make great heroes (Villeneuve as the best example).
Good post, you described it pretty well. It was sadly only a short period. And yes, I know that you can't stop the development. But I think there should be some certain limits that one shouldn't cross in order not to fundamentally change something. And certainly I wouldn't go the absolutely opposite direction of what I described as my ideal/DNA of F1.

There is one thing I can't understand - the F1 cars, circuits, equipment are some much safer and healthcare much more developed than they were. So logic implies there should be more close racing and drivers taking more risks as the risks of injury/death are lower and benefits of driving on the limits are thus higher. Yet you have regulation that prohibits the driver from proper defending and proper overtaking. For the sake of safety. You have one bold overtake and people get crazy these days. You shut the doors on competitor and you are almost crucified. You have rain shower and the race starts behind the safety car. You get Masss's freak accident few years back, Bianchi's tractor on the track, Button's manhole cover incident (looking at it from the point of statistics you get to quite a low chance of that happening again) and people demand fighter jet-like canopies!Everything for the sake of safety. What is next? Safety bubbles for the drivers out of the car? They can slip on the way to the podium you know...

Everything is safer yet you can't properly push the envelope. Then I ask - what is the point of all of this "safety madness"? If it is the legendary "saving one life is worth everything" then that reason is not strong enough for me - for reason I described in my previous posts.
That is what I think, all these have been freak accidents. I think F1 drivers are more likely to die on the flights from one track to the other than getting hit by a foreign object on the head. Ridiculous.

namao
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 4698797056 With this halo, drivers will not make Eau Rouge or Mónaco. A shame.

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Thunder
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Re: Closed Cockpits agreed for 2017

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namao wrote:https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 4698797056

With this halo, drivers will not make Eau Rouge or Mónaco. A shame.
And why would that be? Visibility has already been tested.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum