This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Phil wrote:
What is so special about Pascal, other than him being a Mercedes protegee and him having won the DTM with Mercedes?
I don't know about the European mindset, but here in the states teams across pretty much all sports have some level of bias towards people from their system. In baseball for example, teams will routinely drastically overvalue prospects they recruited, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Phil wrote:
Or is this all about Zetsche putting on pressure on Rosberg to take a lesser deal?
Who knows!
If you asked me, I think its the people paying the bills trying to box Nico into the #2 role. Being payed substantially less than your teammate is a good way of telling you you're #2 without actually saying it. Though they will never say it, I think Mercedes would like a clear 1-2, as undoubtedly the infighting between Lewis & Nico hurts the team on some level.
It was thought any wrangling would be about Rosberg simply upping the value of his retainer, but Gerhard Berger said: “It’s not about money. It’s about something else.”
Bild newspaper claims the uncertainty about a new deal for Rosberg is indeed less about money and more to do with whether Mercedes wants to promote its young charger Pascal Wehrlein from Manor.
The team might therefore be happy with a mere one-year deal for Rosberg next year, but Berger and the 30-year-old is pushing for a full three-year extension.
Berger said: “We need to agree with the strategy that they (Mercedes) want to go with for the future. If they agree, then we can negotiate.”
Probably they have ran out of patience to manage the equality for two drivers and have somewhere, made up their mind that, they simply want a No. 2 for the next 2 years. And for that, they are not ready to pay a huge sum, for three years. One year is OK.
Lewis is 31 and by the end of 2018, he would be 33 and would then potentially have another 2 years left, so they feel confident to retain him as their No.1 and are looking for grooming a younger driver. May be they have got influenced by Red Bull, who have two really talented, but far most cost effective drivers. To me, Esteban Ocon would be a better bet instead of Wehrlein.
Interesting. It's as I thought, though I still don't get why it must be Wehrlein. But the underlying point is that if they go with Rosberg for another 3 years, then they are out of the driver roulette until 2018 (Lewis) and 2019 (Rosberg). Under the presumption that Lewis is worth more to Mercedes on the basis of him being a WDC and very marketable to Mercedes, they may be willing to lose Rosberg over Lewis, so it will take them till 2019 until they can go for what might be the next best thing by then. And Wehrlein or not, I'm unsure if he wants to drive for Manor another 3.5 years.
Seriously, I really rate Rosberg. But I am still off the believe that Mercedes doesn't need two drivers at the level of Lewis and Rosberg, both at the same age. It was good while it lasted, especially under the fact that the last 2 years and this year will have been a two horse race by both Mercedes drivers. But in the long run and going into a new era of very new rules, it would probably make more sense to have a younger and a more experienced one long term. You don't want to end up with the situation when both jump off at the same time due to having enough.
I wonder if Mercedes is seriously contemplating NOT keeping Rosberg and thinking more longterm. Then again, if Rosberg wins this years WDC which he might, it would be good (better) for Mercedes to be able to market him as a Mercedes driver and not have him go somewhere else as a consequence of not being able to make a deal with him for less than the 3 years he is asking for.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Although i'm no fan of the modern sports philosophy of rushing in young guns, Merc have multiple inhouse options in Wehrlein, Ocon, and Rosenqvist at the moment, with a possible path for them through FI and Williams if a deal is to be found. I respect both of ROS and HAM, but hell they could put Bernd Schneider in and he'll do a good job (IF both the current drivers go elsewhere; ok, far from a possibility)
Autosport: Why is Hamilton such a divisive figure? It's a premium feature, so I was wondering if anyone who had a membership could give us a brief summary of the article. Thank you for any help in advance!
Phil wrote:Interesting. It's as I thought, though I still don't get why it must be Wehrlein. But the underlying point is that if they go with Rosberg for another 3 years, then they are out of the driver roulette until 2018 (Lewis) and 2019 (Rosberg). Under the presumption that Lewis is worth more to Mercedes on the basis of him being a WDC and very marketable to Mercedes, they may be willing to lose Rosberg over Lewis, so it will take them till 2019 until they can go for what might be the next best thing by then. And Wehrlein or not, I'm unsure if he wants to drive for Manor another 3.5 years.
Seriously, I really rate Rosberg. But I am still off the believe that Mercedes doesn't need two drivers at the level of Lewis and Rosberg, both at the same age. It was good while it lasted, especially under the fact that the last 2 years and this year will have been a two horse race by both Mercedes drivers. But in the long run and going into a new era of very new rules, it would probably make more sense to have a younger and a more experienced one long term. You don't want to end up with the situation when both jump off at the same time due to having enough.
I wonder if Mercedes is seriously contemplating NOT keeping Rosberg and thinking more longterm. Then again, if Rosberg wins this years WDC which he might, it would be good (better) for Mercedes to be able to market him as a Mercedes driver and not have him go somewhere else as a consequence of not being able to make a deal with him for less than the 3 years he is asking for.
For Wehrlein the route could be: Manor - Williams - Mercedes.
If Rosberg leaves Mercedes I imagine they will fill the vacancy with Bottas first, an excellent steady driver to put next to Hamilton until it's clear how the mid-short term works out. (Bottas is managed by partnership with Toto Wolf)
I'm interested in the psychology of the battle going on at Mercedes.
Nico had a truly commanding lead pre-Monaco and seemed to be driving very much in that vein, confident and commanding. I actually think he was close to crucially denting Hamilton's substantial self-belief (which saw him overcome several obstacles, not least the WDC in 2014).
Monaco was obviously a blow to that but he still had a substantial points lead. However, T1 at Montreal and, to an extent, the block at Barcelona, both struck me as being out of character for Rosberg 2016 and unnecessary. I'll caveat by saying that I suspect that, at Barcelona, Rosberg didn't realise Hamilton was as close as he actually was (Nico pressing the overtake key is a sign that he wasn't as in command of the details of the situation as he normally is) but it's difficult to know for sure.
Sitting on the starting line at Barcelona, he was in such a position that he didn't have to take any risks. Hamilton needed seven consecutive wins to close the gap, as long as Rosberg managed to finish second every time. Seven wins to close the gap and, even if Rosberg only won five more races across the whole season, as long as he finished second in the others, Hamilton was toast. Hamilton knew that and I think it was playing on his mind as each race ticked by. Add in the problems Hamilton is going to have with his power unit part allocation and Rosberg could turn the screw simply by shadowing Hamilton and waiting for him to make a mistake and capitalising on the tracks that he is superior at and will be starting on pole. Even if Hamilton drove flawlessly, just come in second and that gap will still seem almost unbridgeable.
However, that doesn't seem to have been his approach. How much Barcelona was a deliberately hard move vs a reflexive one is debatable (please don't reopen the debate here), Monaco was team orders but Montreal was definitely Nico pushing too hard and gambling that Lewis was going to be cautious on the brakes and then, when he wasn't, gambling that Lewis was going to back right out and let him tip-toe around the outside (a mistake he didn't repeat with Max when the situation repeated itself later). If he was successful, he might then go on to stretch his, still commanding, lead a little. If not, then he knew he would have to run wide at the worst possible point of a race. T1, first lap, where even a second lost will cost you four or five positions. Surely the risk vs reward balance was out?
I think that, today, Nico will be more angry with himself than Lewis. It' a shame, because it feels like a throwback to the Rosberg of previous years, where as, this year he could have been absolutely Terminator-like. Just turning the screw, little by little, every race. I wonder if part of it is due to the scarring of Singapore in 2014 so perhaps he feels like he has to keep a 26+ point lead, no matter what?
The psychology sure is interesting. I'm actually amazed how quickly things have turned around after just two races. 3 races ago - in Barcelona - I was full of praise for Nico. In awe at what he did. I maintain he was in the wrong to move over and block, heck, even against the rules and doing so when facing a car related issue that caused that speed differential is a big no-go. A dangerous, blunt and decisive move. And IMO he did so fully aware.
What he didn't count on, is that Lewis evaded, lost control and took them both out. But it was the best thing that could have happened. Points advantage, still mighty 43 points, but one less race to catch it up. I did the math in one of these topics - assuming a two horse race, Nico and Hamilton fighting it out, even assuming Hamilton would prevail with a 2:1 win ratio (winning 2 races in 3) which would be up there with his best record against Nico in 2014 and 2015, he'd run out of races before he catches that lead.
Monaco happens, and for whatever reason, Rosberg seems paralyzed with fear - fear of going in a wall, having a DNF and losing 18 points. It didn't help that Hamilton was right on his tale. Putting on pressure, mounting attacks in a place where overtaking is usually a ticket into the wall or the other car. I think that was part of the reason why Rosberg didn't recover. He was too concerned of watching his side mirrors and not making a mistake. At that point, he lost more temperature in his tyres and eventually, team-orders come in and take the decision out of his hands. Part of me believes he made room, because he at that point had enough of Hamilton slaloming in his side-mirrors. That his team-mate could grab the win away from RedBull and Ricciardo was unlikely. Worst case - conceding 3 points in the WDC race. But then things got worse, and he got passed in the pits and Hamilton took victory.
It's funny in a weird way, but 2014 started quite similarly. Rosberg had the lead and then he started to do things a bit differently, perhaps started to play the "numbers game" and that's when Hamilton started to gain momentum. I could see 2016 going similarly but there's still a long way to go and the starts are still a concern for Hamilton. For whatever reason, he's not acing them as he has been doing in the past when he used to have an edge over Nico in both 2014 and 2015.
Contrary to believe, I think Hamilton has been driving masterful so far this season. Yes, the starts have gotten him into trouble and he has been facing glitches in qualifying, but when given the chance for a clean qualifying session, he has beaten Rosberg on every single occasion. It's not unlike 2015 when he had things under control and pulled away slowly in the championship. The only thing left to gain the upper hand for Hamilton is to ace those starts again and if he is on pole, he should have that advantage, together with pit-stop priority to ensure that he has the best chance to capture the win. Will it all work out?
Well, it's going to be interesting to see how much closer Ferrari and RedBull are. I still think there's a substantial gap which will ensure that Mercedes remain favorites to finish 1 & 2 for the most part of the coming races. Sure, there will also be some tracks where I think Mercedes will be still on the back foot. Singapore being one of them. But on the more technical circuits, I think they still have an edge. If they don't, it's going to make it very interesting between both Mercedes drivers, as a win, will be worth more if the 2nd driver doesn't finish 2nd. I expect Nico to be strong in a couple of upcoming races, but I can't help but feel that perhaps the on-going negotiations with Mercedes is also influencing his mental ability to perform at his very best.
Does he feel undervalued by the team because they perhaps don't want to give him the 3 year deal he wants? Does he feel he deserves a higher salary? These are all little things that could make a small difference. Not capturing pole is another. Even if it's clear that it's not required to win a GP, it still does give you confidence knowing you can beat the best on 1-lap pace.
Interesting times ahead.
Also to note; Hamilton is not only facing a bit of a disadvantage on the engine side, he also has 2 reprimands. 1 more and he is going to face a grid penalty.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Phil wrote:The psychology sure is interesting. I'm actually amazed how quickly things have turned around after just two races. 3 races ago - in Barcelona - I was full of praise for Nico. In awe at what he did. I maintain he was in the wrong to move over and block, heck, even against the rules and doing so when facing a car related issue that caused that speed differential is a big no-go. A dangerous, blunt and decisive move. And IMO he did so fully aware.
What he didn't count on, is that Lewis evaded, lost control and took them both out. But it was the best thing that could have happened. Points advantage, still mighty 43 points, but one less race to catch it up. I did the math in one of these topics - assuming a two horse race, Nico and Hamilton fighting it out, even assuming Hamilton would prevail with a 2:1 win ratio (winning 2 races in 3) which would be up there with his best record against Nico in 2014 and 2015, he'd run out of races before he catches that lead.
Monaco happens, and for whatever reason, Rosberg seems paralyzed with fear - fear of going in a wall, having a DNF and losing 18 points. It didn't help that Hamilton was right on his tale. Putting on pressure, mounting attacks in a place where overtaking is usually a ticket into the wall or the other car. I think that was part of the reason why Rosberg didn't recover. He was too concerned of watching his side mirrors and not making a mistake. At that point, he lost more temperature in his tyres and eventually, team-orders come in and take the decision out of his hands. Part of me believes he made room, because he at that point had enough of Hamilton slaloming in his side-mirrors. That his team-mate could grab the win away from RedBull and Ricciardo was unlikely. Worst case - conceding 3 points in the WDC race. But then things got worse, and he got passed in the pits and Hamilton took victory.
It's funny in a weird way, but 2014 started quite similarly. Rosberg had the lead and then he started to do things a bit differently, perhaps started to play the "numbers game" and that's when Hamilton started to gain momentum. I could see 2016 going similarly but there's still a long way to go and the starts are still a concern for Hamilton. For whatever reason, he's not acing them as he has been doing in the past when he used to have an edge over Nico in both 2014 and 2015.
Contrary to believe, I think Hamilton has been driving masterful so far this season. Yes, the starts have gotten him into trouble and he has been facing glitches in qualifying, but when given the chance for a clean qualifying session, he has beaten Rosberg on every single occasion. It's not unlike 2015 when he had things under control and pulled away slowly in the championship. The only thing left to gain the upper hand for Hamilton is to ace those starts again and if he is on pole, he should have that advantage, together with pit-stop priority to ensure that he has the best chance to capture the win. Will it all work out?
Well, it's going to be interesting to see how much closer Ferrari and RedBull are. I still think there's a substantial gap which will ensure that Mercedes remain favorites to finish 1 & 2 for the most part of the coming races. Sure, there will also be some tracks where I think Mercedes will be still on the back foot. Singapore being one of them. But on the more technical circuits, I think they still have an edge. If they don't, it's going to make it very interesting between both Mercedes drivers, as a win, will be worth more if the 2nd driver doesn't finish 2nd. I expect Nico to be strong in a couple of upcoming races, but I can't help but feel that perhaps the on-going negotiations with Mercedes is also influencing his mental ability to perform at his very best.
Does he feel undervalued by the team because they perhaps don't want to give him the 3 year deal he wants? Does he feel he deserves a higher salary? These are all little things that could make a small difference. Not capturing pole is another. Even if it's clear that it's not required to win a GP, it still does give you confidence knowing you can beat the best on 1-lap pace.
Interesting times ahead.
Also to note; Hamilton is not only facing a bit of a disadvantage on the engine side, he also has 2 reprimands. 1 more and he is going to face a grid penalty.
Plus, what Monaco and Canada showed, or even this whole season, RedBull and Ferrari being closer means you need a clean race to finish on the podium, not like 2014, where a mistake or a bad day in a Mercedes would be a second place. In 2014 Rosberg would got away with two second places in the last two Grand Prix.
Nico still has time to recover from his state of mind problems. Good that its happening early into the season than in the second half closing stages. If he can deal and get back strong on his strengths then I feel he can win this season. Nothing is lost unless Nico wants to give up now. The character and temperament is key. Forget Lewis and drive that's all. Luck will be back soon.
He will either pull through with a win in Baku or its time to say goodbye to Merc in 2017. Lewis is too difficult for him to handle and may be that's why Lewis choose him to be his buddy at Merc. Lewis is too shrewd and strong with his mind games on and off the track.
Unlike in 2014, this year Rosberg is simply unable to out do Lewis in qualifying. On the other hand, 2014 was a season of perseverance and self belief and a great foundation for Lewis to believe he can win the championship by all means. After the first three races of this season, when someone told Nico that, all those drivers who have won the first three races, have gone on to win the championship, he simply said, "They didn't had Lewis as their team mate". Although that sounds reasonable and realistic, a lot of it shows that, he himself doesn't have a great deal of self belief that, he has advantage and he can nail that home.
Mercedes haven't introduced any PU upgrades yet, whereas both Ferrari and Renault have brought significant upgrades that have brought them closer. If Mercedes, for whatever reason, doesn't bring a major upgrade and the other two manage to put in some more grunt, it is only going to affect Nico more and more as he would be challenged for that front row. That means, he has to battle it out to get in front, which so far, he hasn't done to perfection.
It seemed like, he went with DRS open for slightly longer in Canada when he spun on the penultimate lap. He should consider himself lucky to have blundered and then to still have come out with 9 points lead. In most cases, a spin at that speed will take him to barriers and the result would have been, Lewis leading the championship by a point. That would have definitely been the end of Nico's season.
I am sure that, Mercedes' hesitation to given him 3 year extension, which to me is a nonsense, would have definitely made him concerned and that to any driver in his position would have been confidence denting. Probably, that had something to do with him easily relenting to the team orders in Monaco.
wickedz50 wrote:Nico still has time to recover from his state of mind problems. Good that its happening early into the season than in the second half closing stages. If he can deal and get back strong on his strengths then I feel he can win this season. Nothing is lost unless Nico wants to give up now. The character and temperament is key. Forget Lewis and drive that's all. Luck will be back soon.
He will either pull through with a win in Baku or its time to say goodbye to Merc in 2017. Lewis is too difficult for him to handle and may be that's why Lewis choose him to be his buddy at Merc. Lewis is too shrewd and strong with his mind games on and off the track.
What state of mind problems? He had Lewis at the start of the last two races, and barring the unforseen and the unfortunate, would have likely gone on to win. Nico is simply experiencing some overdue bad luck.
