I would definitely like to continue. The bigger question is if the guys responsible for the rules, rule checking Virtual Stop Watch and CAD cleanup would continue without Julien.
Also someone would have to setup a new cool homepage. Finding someone who could do the CFD runs should not be too difficult.
What would also work is that everyone does the final CFD run himself and puts it online for the others to download and check the validity of it. We would spread a lot of secrets that way but it could make the whole challenge very interesting.
I could offer to supply the contenders with MantiumWFlow. First I would have to finish the Windows port as I guess many people here use that OS.
But still a few words from Julien would be very cool.
Hi!
I'm still reading and interested in competing. It would be too bad if we could not continue with the championship. I agree with Mateo that the only alternative would be to relocate the computing part. If it cannot be done by an outsider to the competition I would guess that the fairest thing to do would be to be 100% open to all the participants. That is, all judge and be judged. Something in the line of:
-> We all submit at deadline.
-> Everybody gets to check the compliance of all the other cars for a defined time (1 week for example).
-> Once all cars are legal (or penalized as before), each of us with simulation capabilities does the CFD. If there are more cars than simulating PC we distribute accordingly.
-> We share all the results and have another defined time to raise complaints (for example car different than approved).
The downside is that we would all see each others cars. We could come to some extra rules to avoid copying others designs but in general it would be like a gentleman's agreement.
LVDH wrote:I would definitely like to continue. The bigger question is if the guys responsible for the rules, rule checking Virtual Stop Watch and CAD cleanup would continue without Julien.
Also someone would have to setup a new cool homepage. Finding someone who could do the CFD runs should not be too difficult.
What would also work is that everyone does the final CFD run himself and puts it online for the others to download and check the validity of it. We would spread a lot of secrets that way but it could make the whole challenge very interesting.
I could offer to supply the contenders with MantiumWFlow. First I would have to finish the Windows port as I guess many people here use that OS.
But still a few words from Julien would be very cool.
No problem for the website management (but with a different domain name), I can host it on my website or on a dedicated one (the cost il less than 30$/year, less than the cost of my present sponsorship).
Your tool "MantiumWFlow" would be great (I hade to opportunity to see it, but there are interesting data about it on your website). I was working on a "OpenFOAM" folder ready to be run under Windows (based on the CFDsupport release), but your MantiumWFlow is very superior.
AratzH wrote:Hi!
I'm still reading and interested in competing. It would be too bad if we could not continue with the championship. I agree with Mateo that the only alternative would be to relocate the computing part. If it cannot be done by an outsider to the competition I would guess that the fairest thing to do would be to be 100% open to all the participants. That is, all judge and be judged. Something in the line of:
-> We all submit at deadline.
-> Everybody gets to check the compliance of all the other cars for a defined time (1 week for example).
-> Once all cars are legal (or penalized as before), each of us with simulation capabilities does the CFD. If there are more cars than simulating PC we distribute accordingly.
-> We share all the results and have another defined time to raise complaints (for example car different than approved).
The downside is that we would all see each others cars. We could come to some extra rules to avoid copying others designs but in general it would be like a gentleman's agreement.
I think it is the right direction... a "peer to peer" model.
I am also thinking about a "milder" version of this scheme, that would allow to keep some data more protected (let me think about it a bit more).
AratzH wrote:Hi!
I'm still reading and interested in competing. It would be too bad if we could not continue with the championship. I agree with Mateo that the only alternative would be to relocate the computing part. If it cannot be done by an outsider to the competition I would guess that the fairest thing to do would be to be 100% open to all the participants. That is, all judge and be judged. Something in the line of:
-> We all submit at deadline.
-> Everybody gets to check the compliance of all the other cars for a defined time (1 week for example).
-> Once all cars are legal (or penalized as before), each of us with simulation capabilities does the CFD. If there are more cars than simulating PC we distribute accordingly.
-> We share all the results and have another defined time to raise complaints (for example car different than approved).
The downside is that we would all see each others cars. We could come to some extra rules to avoid copying others designs but in general it would be like a gentleman's agreement.
I would prefer that we do not have access to each other's cars. This will eventually lead to all cars looking the same, and it will be unfair to those that have really innovative features. It may be more difficult to put in place, but an independent third party that checks compliance and runs CFD is, in my opinion, the better way to go.
CAEdevice wrote:An important question: Chris and Machin would still be available to collaborate on the challenge ?
I'll still be around, but if anything, my involvement probably would've dropped off a bit going forward. With 15 entries, it was very difficult finding the time to get through everything.
If Julien is definitely out, then for things to continue roughly as they were before we'd need to find someone to take on the lead role - I won't be able to do that. I will probably be able to continue with the rulebook / compliance-checking if some changes are made to streamline things. I think we'd need one more person on top of that to fill in the gaps, since it was always a struggle with 2 people managing everything on the KVRC side.
CAEdevice wrote:An important question: Chris and Machin would still be available to collaborate on the challenge ?
I'll still be around, but if anything, my involvement probably would've dropped off a bit going forward. With 15 entries, it was very difficult finding the time to get through everything.
If Julien is definitely out, then for things to continue roughly as they were before we'd need to find someone to take on the lead role - I won't be able to do that. I will probably be able to continue with the rulebook / compliance-checking if some changes are made to streamline things. I think we'd need one more person on top of that to fill in the gaps, since it was always a struggle with 2 people managing everything on the KVRC side.
In think that no more than 3/5 car should be checked... I'm out of office again, I will explain my proposal in a few days.
I would be tempted to coordinate the challenge, but it would be a shame, from my point of view, because, after two year running for the 4th place, I finally have a promising car ...
1) The simulation process should be done by each team individually
2) If a team doesn't have the possibility to run a simulation (es. not enough hardware resources), it could ask another team to provide the simulation. This implies that the geometric data will be shared with that team and it is possible for the two team to cooperate. In addition to the individual race, a "costructor" race will be held, considering the sum of the points of the "official" team and of the "customer" team. The grade of cooperation is free (an "official" team can partially provide details of the official car to the "customer" teams), but a single team can submit only a car/simulation.
3) Each team will submit both geometry data and simulation results, without sharing them with the other teams before the official result will be shown (just a bit of suspence..)
4) The solver will be OpenFOAM, an "OpenFOAM" case folder with the official boundary conditions, mesh settings and solution parameters would be provided, ready to be run on Linux or Windows
5) I'm talking with a CFD services provider to have a technical sponsorship (= free online simulations)
TECHNICAL RULES
6) The technical rules will be similar to the latest edition of the KVRC rulebook: in order to start the new challange on October, there is not enough time to design from scratch the cars. The present cooling boundary condition will be simplified (but when the tool provided by Manitum will be avalable, it would be great to switch to the porus media simulation)
RACE RULES
7) A certain level of trust between gentlemen will be necessary to reduce the time dedicated to geometry and simulation check
8) Only 4 cars will be checked about geometry: the faster one of the race, the first team of the ranking, a car selected by voting (see the following point) and a randomly selected one. The rule will assign small penalities for small detail and a big penalities for important details (es. ground distance form the floor, rear wing dimensions, diffuser dimensions, ...). We will need to discuss about this penalties.
9) The submission must include 3 pictures with defined point of view, that will be published before the race.
10) There will not be any resubmission option
11) To be sure to avoid penalties, each team can publicly discuss each ambiguous detail on the official forum. No private (by mail or other) contacts with the staff will not be possible about the legality of the car.
12) Only two simulations will be checked: the faster car and a randomly selected one (I have an idea about the random selection, we will discuss it later)
13) A difference of more than 10% on the total DF, total DRAG and resultant moment around the transverse direction will be discussed publicly and it could lead to the disqualification
14) In case of smaller differences, the official simulation results will be used
CHALLENGE RULES
15) The yearly challenge will consist of three races (es. extreme downforce, efficiency, low drag). The race track features will be discussed, but it would be difficult to increase the number of races. About 10 weeks will separate each race.
16) Special events could be held during the year (I am thinking about a F1 2017 study or Forumla E template), during the months without races.
STAFF, SPONSOR, CHALLANGE NAME
17) I hope that the partecipation to the official forum will continue as in the past, if possible involving all the teams
18) It would be necessary to have someone who deals with the legality check and the simulation reptition. The number of checked car could be further reduced. I could do it, but I am also tempted to continue racing. Chris did a great job during 2015 and 2016, but I would like to see his wonderful cars racing again. This is quite a critical point I guess.
19) I can deal with everything is related to website and forum (F1tech is ok, but no problem to start a dedicated forum on a dedicated domain).
20) A timelap estimation software will be used (it would be great to still have Richard Machin in the staff)
21) Technical sponsorships would be welcome (MantiumFlow for example)
22) The role of Julien as a counselor would be very welcome
23) What about a new logo? Khamsin (software) seems to be discontinued
24) Is it ok for Julien to use the previous years roll of honor and pictures? It would be ok to use the name "kvrc" in case we decide to keep it (on the other side, the desert wind is a fascinating concept)?
I think we should drop engine performance based calculations and standardize power for everyone eliminating engine intake/exhaust and cooling intake/exhaust.
Maybe that takes a little realism away but I see it as the ability to focus on more interesting aero aspects and could still be quite a competition for us designers.
I also believe this will reduce compliance checking time and overall processing.
SR71 wrote:I think we should drop engine performance based calculations and standardize power for everyone eliminating engine intake/exhaust and cooling intake/exhaust.
Maybe that takes a little realism away but I see it as the ability to focus on more interesting aero aspects and could still be quite a competition for us designers.
I also believe this will reduce compliance checking time and overall processing.
Cooling is a fundamental part of the aerodynamic design of a car. Eliminating the inlets and outlets design would lead to an aero contest not related to motorsport (interesting anyway).
By the way: I am working on a CFD framework based on OpenFoam, with the same boundary conditions of OCCFD (cooling is still present but simplified in order to have a more robust tools even if less complete). At the moment all the post processing would require the manual use of Paraview (I am not as skilled as Julien in coding), but I have great expectations about Mantium (LDVH) tool (maybe for the next season?)
I quit as contender and run the championship.
I would call it MVRC and you guys could use a simplified version of MantiumWFlow and also run simulations on the online platform I am working on.
Regarding cooling, I suggest we run with ducts and heat exchangers as it is implemented in MantiumWFlow. If this seems to hard for too many people we could go back to last years rules. Despite some remarks, cooling is and will be a fundamental part of vehicle aerodynamics for some time to come. The simplified cooling solution we had this year does not convince me.
As it would be very sad for me not to be able to design anymore I came up with a rule you guys hopefully like.
After every race the participants should write a story or something on their or the official MVRC blog. The best story wins me or an external sponsor as designer for one part of the car e.g. a new floor. The part will be open source and available to everyone. I hope this will encourage the participants to write more about their cars and promote this great challenge that way.
I would only ask for a thumbs up from the current KVRC staff to continue and Julien to be OK with this.
I quit as contender and run the championship.
I would call it MVRC and you guys could use a simplified version of MantiumWFlow and also run simulations on the online platform I am working on.
Regarding cooling, I suggest we run with ducts and heat exchangers as it is implemented in MantiumWFlow. If this seems to hard for too many people we could go back to last years rules. Despite some remarks, cooling is and will be a fundamental part of vehicle aerodynamics for some time to come. The simplified cooling solution we had this year does not convince me.
As it would be very sad for me not to be able to design anymore I came up with a rule you guys hopefully like.
After every race the participants should write a story or something on their or the official MVRC blog. The best story wins me or an external sponsor as designer for one part of the car e.g. a new floor. The part will be open source and available to everyone. I hope this will encourage the participants to write more about their cars and promote this great challenge that way.
I would only ask for a thumbs up from the current KVRC staff to continue and Julien to be OK with this.
I am enthusiastic about every part of your proposal. The only questions are:
- It would not be the same if you do not participate ( too much desire to beat you on the track )
- What about geometry check and pre processing (and laptime simulation?) ? I think Chris and Machin job help would be very important
- What about my proposal of limited checks and simulations to allow you to partecipate ?
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