2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Vyssion
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012, 14:40

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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godlameroso wrote:Anyone care to guess how the new much wider tires will affect aerodynamics? The shapes can't possibly be the same, the wake from the tires will be different, the angles of the outer elements of the wings will have to change in order to do the same thing they were doing before.
If I had my two cents worth, I would say that the increase in the vorticity from the shed vortices will be either compensated or at least reduced by the increase in width from the front and rear wings. Aerodynamics in F1 is mostly about vortex control and with the current designs, the endplates need to be quite aggressive in order to divert the vortices around the wheels. Having the front wing wider will aid in this and so reduce the bluff body effects which we currently get. These rear wings were implemented back in 2009 as well by te Overtaking Working Group in order to make for more dramatic racing. They thought that by reducing the width of the rear wing whilst increasing the width of the front wing that the car would be less sensitive to the turbulent air when following behind another racer. This didn't actually work in practice, but this failure was masked by the dramatic increase in overtaking due to DRS and Pirelli tyre degradation.

I would say that the main issue that I have with the changes to the aerodynamics in 2017 isn't all of the self interactions of the different vehicular surfaces, but rather the influence that the changes (especially to the rear wing) will have on overtaking...

With the current setup, F1 cars following behind the cars in front struggle for aerodynamic grip due to the turbulent air which they must drive through. You sometimes see a drop in downforce by as much as 60% depending on how close you are to the car in front which is insane. With the new changes, a beam wing has been introduced, rear wing aggressiveness has been added, wider aero parts etc... All of this means that the hole which is punched in the air by the first car is even bigger than before; add in the fact that the beam wing will essentially act as a method of turbocharging air way up and over the top of the following car, and downforce drops may even approach 70+%........

I genuinely feel that the rule makers and other non-aerodynamicists have literally sat around a table and done a Jeremy Clarkson: shouted the aerodynamic equivalent of "POWERRRRRRR" and then moved on before consulting the experts. 2017 will definitely see faster lap times - there is no doubt in my mind about that... However, what we will see is MUCH less overtaking, and a lot more undercuts in the pits because the time increase incurred by following someone and actually trying to overtake someone is so steep, that if you can time a pitstop correctly and come out in clean air, you can overtake them much easier. I couldnt care less about the lap speed times (to a point of course) but what I want to see is more wheel to wheel racing. If races start and finish with bugger all overtaking except in pits, but the cars lap 10 seconds faster, that to me is utterly boring. With constant battling for positions all over the field, youre always on the edge of your seat watching people jostle for position... THAT is how F1 needs to be: The fastest motorsport on the planet by a decent margin, but beyond that, constant overtaking to make it exciting. If this was done, I "may" even forgive the abhorrent engine sounds...... :roll:
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bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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People are gonna complain about reduced overtaking next season no matter what happens, because overtaking is currently occurring at a historically high rate...

Image
via Clip the Apex

...and Pirelli has announced that it will no longer supply the "designed to degrade" tires that have enabled it. Even if overtaking turns out to be twice as prevalent as what we saw in the late '90s/early '00s, the sheer magnitude of the drop will make instances of overtaking seem much more scarce.

As far as aero is concerned, larger diffusers and, crucially, shorter tea trays - not to mention larger bargeboards and canted turning vanes - will mean the cars should create more "pure" ground effect downforce as a percentage of total downforce than has been the case in decades, and the staggered arrangement of the diffuser, beam wing, and rear wing should naturally limit upwash.

That said, I do believe they've probably bitten off a bit more than they can chew, because I genuinely can't see how the cars will be only five seconds quicker. Top teams could find four seconds from the tires and diffusers alone. Add the wider track-width to all the other gizmos, and...

I'll put it this way: I'm more exited about next season than I have been about anything related to F1 in years.

crackers
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Hello everyone, new to the forum so please be gentle!

I remember when the rules changed in 97 with the narrower cars and grooved tyres Damon Hill was having his terrible year at Arrows. He was asked his thoughts about the changes, he stated he did not like them. He proposed to increase overtaking, rather than making the car narrower was infact to increase the width of the tyres. His thoughts were that it served to increase drag and improve mechanical grip. With the wider tyres the cars drag would increase such an amount that on the straights the leading car would have to work so hard to punch such a big hole in the air the slipstream effect for cars running behind would increase leading to alot more passing.

With the wider tyres i hope drivers will have a much larger grip window hitting the brakes leading to some exciting late braking at the end of the straights too. In addition with pirelli ending the tyre degradation offline should have much less marbles allowing the drivers to use more of the track with the late braking.

Bring on 2017!!!!

PhillipM
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Yeah, the trouble is a lot of overtakes is not the same as a lot of good overtaking. The vast majority of those are people just driving past each other in a straight line under DRS.

3jawchuck
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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PhillipM wrote:Yeah, the trouble is a lot of overtakes is not the same as a lot of good overtaking. The vast majority of those are people just driving past each other in a straight line under DRS.
Indeed, the last thing we want is Indy style racing where overtakes rarely seem to mean anything. Some of the best racing I've seen has been a couple of the best drivers (Schumacher and Alonso for example) battling each other. Trying to get ahead/keep the other one behind, and when the pass does happen, it's a blinder. Part of the reason I am not a big fan of DRS.

krisfx
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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3jawchuck wrote:
PhillipM wrote:Yeah, the trouble is a lot of overtakes is not the same as a lot of good overtaking. The vast majority of those are people just driving past each other in a straight line under DRS.
Indeed, the last thing we want is Indy style racing where overtakes rarely seem to mean anything. Some of the best racing I've seen has been a couple of the best drivers (Schumacher and Alonso for example) battling each other. Trying to get ahead/keep the other one behind, and when the pass does happen, it's a blinder. Part of the reason I am not a big fan of DRS.

I've been saying this for years. I couldn't care less if there was one overtake a race, as long as that overtake had an absolutely fantastic battle. Brundle once said that an overtake is like a goal in football, it would quickly get boring with 40 goals a game. The battle for me is the most thrilling part. Modern overtaking aids and rules to hinder the defending party really ruin.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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The best overtaking occurs when equal drivers are in equal but different cars. E.g. car A is better in sector 1, car B in sector 2. Then you get lots of the "will he, won't he" dicing for several laps. This, of course, is reliant on the cars being able to stay within 1second of each other.
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Juzh
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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djos
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Hooray!
"In downforce we trust"

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Formula Wrong
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:People are gonna complain about reduced overtaking next season no matter what happens, because overtaking is currently occurring at a historically high rate...

http://i.imgur.com/unIpyUG.jpg
via Clip the Apex

...and Pirelli has announced that it will no longer supply the "designed to degrade" tires that have enabled it. Even if overtaking turns out to be twice as prevalent as what we saw in the late '90s/early '00s, the sheer magnitude of the drop will make instances of overtaking seem much more scarce.

As far as aero is concerned, larger diffusers and, crucially, shorter tea trays - not to mention larger bargeboards and canted turning vanes - will mean the cars should create more "pure" ground effect downforce as a percentage of total downforce than has been the case in decades, and the staggered arrangement of the diffuser, beam wing, and rear wing should naturally limit upwash.

That said, I do believe they've probably bitten off a bit more than they can chew, because I genuinely can't see how the cars will be only five seconds quicker. Top teams could find four seconds from the tires and diffusers alone. Add the wider track-width to all the other gizmos, and...

I'll put it this way: I'm more exited about next season than I have been about anything related to F1 in years.
Am I reading correctly from that overtake-graph that the first half of 2016 has already seen almost as many overtakes as the whole season of 2015? :shock:
djos wrote:
Hooray!
Not only no Halo; but no flying Safety-Car-Starts when the track is wet as well. They'll probably still have several laps behind the SC but after that they want to do a normal, standing start! 8)
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mrluke
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Just_a_fan wrote:The best overtaking occurs when equal drivers are in equal but different cars. E.g. car A is better in sector 1, car B in sector 2. Then you get lots of the "will he, won't he" dicing for several laps. This, of course, is reliant on the cars being able to stay within 1second of each other.
100% agreed.

The reason we have no exciting battles is that the cars are too similar.

We need as much variation as possible while still achieving the same lap times.



Downforce / dirty air are not the real problems. Lack of differentiation is.

FPV GTHO
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Just_a_fan wrote:The best overtaking occurs when equal drivers are in equal but different cars. E.g. car A is better in sector 1, car B in sector 2. Then you get lots of the "will he, won't he" dicing for several laps. This, of course, is reliant on the cars being able to stay within 1second of each other.
That racing is nothing like the Alonso/Schumacher battles people keep touching themselves over however. Back then you needed to be 2+ seconds faster to pass a car infront.

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scuderiafan
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Much of the overtaking in that graph post-2010 is down to DRS though, isn't it?
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Patiently waiting...

FPV GTHO
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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mrluke wrote:
100% agreed.

The reason we have no exciting battles is that the cars are too similar.

We need as much variation as possible while still achieving the same lap times.

Downforce / dirty air are not the real problems. Lack of differentiation is.
Those guys also aren't stupid enough to design their cars to only race from the front, like leading F1 teams have been guilty of in the past. They know they will need to do alot of overtaking by the nature of the class structure, so they design the aero to accommodate that.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:People are gonna complain about reduced overtaking next season no matter what happens, because overtaking is currently occurring at a historically high rate...
If Vission point of view is similar to mine, he was talking about real overtakes, not that gimmick DRS overtakes wich ruined the real and exciting overtakes

FIA keep missing the point, F1 does not need faster cars, F1 need real battles.

This said, faster cars will be welcome, but if that will mean real battles will be reduced further, I´d stick with current rules