2016 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim, 29-31 July

[Shakeman]

If people here think what Britney did was perfectly acceptable, how would you appreciate the whole grid taking this approach?

If the 'corner dive-bomb' became standard the only overtakes in F1 would be DRS overtakes as the leading driver would always be able easily defend in the braking zone. Not to mention driver trust would be eroded, a following driver has every right to expect the leading driver is braking to take the corner on the racing line unless they out brake themselves in which case the following driver has likely gained an advantage.

If you support Britney's boneheaded move then you in effect support making F1 even more dull as a better driver behind or a better car more able to take the outside line through a corner will always be nullified by the leading driver relaxing on the brake pedal. The German GP was boring enough without every driver using the corner dive-bomb if everyone is doing it'll I'll find something else to do on Sunday afternoons.

[Vasconia]

Having lost such a huge lead, obviously he has been under tremendous pressure in the last 2 races and he isn't someone who is good at handling such a pressure situation. Now that he is trailing by 19 points, I wouldn't be surprised that he over thinks about it in the break and comes back an even more confused man. Most of upcoming races, Nico haven't won there ever (Spa, Monza, Singapore, Japan, US, Malaysia) and that will make it even harder for him. On the other hand, having over come such a huge deficit and now leading with some handsome points, Lewis is going into the break with absolutely great state of mind.

It depends on how you (mentally) face it but this break could be good for Nico to calm down and analize why he has done some bads starts and try to improve. I am sure that Lewis would prefer to continue racing because he is on fire right now.

[Restomaniac]

If if works, its awesome, if not we see comments like this one. I have seen other drivers(Ricciardo for example) making the same move, miles before the corner and the controversy wasnt that big.

Listening to Max´radio when he was complaining about this was...come on, the last driver in the hole universe who should complain about this.

I could be wrong but I don't remember Ricciardo going miles past the apex before even attempting to turn.

I cant say the race right now but I remember one(or two) when he was very optimistic trying to overtake, though the result was not bad(no overtake but now collision either).

But this is the problem.
It isn't about a gutsy move as that should be applauded. It's about the fact that twice now in a short amount of time Rosberg has gone into a corner with someone on his outside and then gone WAYYY past the apex before turning in, so far past the apex that even with full lock on he and he alone has a cat in hells chance of making the corner with a wheel on the track. This isn' t about squeezing an apponent on exit it's about giving them no room to even turn their front wheel into the corner whilst still moving if they want to have any part of their car on the track mid corner.

[FoxHound]

Restomaniac

In Austria he intentionally did so. In Germany, he did so overtaking from about 10 metres behind Verstappen, with brakes fully floored.

Theres a big difference. One is racing and the other is intent to keep a position when there is enough room, speed and traction.

[Restomaniac]

Restomaniac

In Austria he intentionally did so. In Germany, he did so overtaking from about 10 metres behind Verstappen, with brakes fully floored.

Theres a big difference. One is racing and the other is intent to keep a position when there is enough room, speed and traction.

In both cases no attempt at all to try and make the turn when it's normal to do so.

I'll say what I said about the incident in Austria. Rosbergs onboard is damning.

However let us go with your reasoning in that the reason he didn't turn is because he was full on the brakes. Then that means he hasn't made the corner because he is too fast. So he is out of complete control as he cant make the corner whilst giving another driver room as he is supposed to do.

You can't have it both ways. He is either in control of the situation or he is out of control because he can't take the corner in anything like a normal way.

You can't have drivers overtaking by just dive bombing a corner so hard and so fast that they struggle to make the corner and which makes another driver have to leave the track early to mid corner.

[Jolle]

Restomaniac

In Austria he intentionally did so. In Germany, he did so overtaking from about 10 metres behind Verstappen, with brakes fully floored.

Theres a big difference. One is racing and the other is intent to keep a position when there is enough room, speed and traction.

In both cases no attempt at all to try and make the turn when it's normal to do so.

I'll say what I said about the incident in Austria. Rosbergs onboard is damning.

However let us go with your reasoning in that the reason he didn't turn is because he was full on the brakes. Then that means he hasn't made the corner because he is too fast. So he is out of complete control as he cant make the corner whilst giving another driver room as he is supposed to do.

You can't have it both ways. He is either in control of the situation or he is out of control because he can't take the corner in anything like a normal way.

You can't have drivers overtaking by just dive bombing a corner so hard and so fast that they struggle to make the corner and which makes another driver have to leave the track MID corner.

Its just again, when he's faced with a small unexpected change or problem, he drives people off the road (or himself when he's passed on the inside)

[Logie]

Simple fact is NR block the track so MV couldn't go around the corner.

I don't understand what is wrong with Williams and Ferrari, I know Massa had damage but these are both long standing teams with plenty of experience.

Ferraris decision making is shocking this season.

They had a chance of getting Newey before and messed that up, now a well respected person has agreed to leave (not agreeing with Marchionne & Arrivabene multiple times over various ideas, only one outcome can happen).

I guessing decent people might question going to Ferrari now with their random blaming.

[Phil]

In Austria he intentionally did so. In Germany, he did so overtaking from about 10 metres behind Verstappen, with brakes fully floored.

Intentions are a tricky thing to prove, even in Austria too depending on who's side you're on.

Matter of fact is; Rosberg didn't start to turn in until the very last moment, forcing Verstappen to go pretty much straight on and off the track. Expected would have been that Rosberg at least attempts to turn in.

We've had two precedents for this; Austria, where Lewis was slightly ahead and turned into his blindspot as late as possible and then straight into a collision. Result: Rosberg was punished. Hint: What he did was not allowed.

Then another with Vettel, where Vettel was slightly out of control, locked brakes and due to that unable to turn in and thus forced the other car off the track. Result: Vettel was punished.

Clearly, the penalty for Rosberg is as consistent as the stewards can be. I think he got off very lenient too - 5 seconds isn't that bad, not for someone driving that Mercedes. True, it did cause him to drop back from 2nd to 4th, but there is talk about there being set-up problems either way as he didn't seem to have the pace nor the top speed. And then of course Mercedes also had the stopwatch issue, that made the 5 second penalty a 8.2 second one.

My biggest gripe with Rosbergs manoeuvre is that he did not even attempt to turn in and that to me shows the intend of his move. That's pretty similar to driving someone off the track. It's dangerous and not allowed. Had he simply taken the corner, yes, Max might have got a run up on him, but who knows, he might have pulled off the move anyway. Or he might have had a second go without any 5 second penalty. He ruined it all for himself and I hope he learns that this move is not accepted.

[Sonador]

I guessing decent people might question going to Ferrari now with their random blaming.

I hope that there is not a culture inside Ferrari, where it is fear driven (Ron Dennis antics?), aka who not delivers set targets gets axed.
The biggest mistake imho is that Marchione talked a lot pre season and during the season, and putting extreme pressure on his team to deliver, instead of analysing al the processes and improving.

Also they went absolutly crazy with upgrades, and maybe did not spent enough time to understand them properly?

Al above is speculation of course ....

Even Vettel looks unhappy, and stressed ...
I have never seen him make so many mistakes.

[TAG]

My biggest gripe with Rosbergs manoeuvre is that he did not even attempt to turn in and that to me shows the intend of his move. That's pretty similar to driving someone off the track. It's dangerous and not allowed. Had he simply taken the corner, yes, Max might have got a run up on him, but who knows, he might have pulled off the move anyway. Or he might have had a second go without any 5 second penalty. He ruined it all for himself and I hope he learns that this move is not accepted.

If you're braking hard and using 100% of your grip just to stop, then turning the wheel does nothing. Did Rosberg know this and that's why the late turn or did he simply do what Rosberg does, try and make a move that he lacked the aptitude to successfully complete?

It doesn't really matter since in the end, the result whether for Hamilton in Austria or for Verstappen yesterday was essentially the same. He's set a precedence for himself now and hence the penalty.

In Austria he intentionally did so. In Germany, he did so overtaking from about 10 metres behind Verstappen, with brakes fully floored. Theres a big difference. One is racing and the other is intent to keep a position when there is enough room, speed and traction.

The outcome was the same, it was a dive bomb and should have never been attempted (at least at his skill level) so the intent or lack thereof is moot. Had he locked up and hit Verstappen it could have been seen as avoidable contact and taken them both out of the race.

[Tim.Wright]

I don't see why the fact he was at full lock has any effect on the decision.

He needed to be on full lock because of his own decision to brake where he did. He was 100% responsible for the trajectory that his car took.

[Restomaniac]

My biggest gripe with Rosbergs manoeuvre is that he did not even attempt to turn in and that to me shows the intend of his move. That's pretty similar to driving someone off the track. It's dangerous and not allowed. Had he simply taken the corner, yes, Max might have got a run up on him, but who knows, he might have pulled off the move anyway. Or he might have had a second go without any 5 second penalty. He ruined it all for himself and I hope he learns that this move is not accepted.

If you're braking hard and using 100% of your grip just to stop, then turning the wheel does nothing. Did Rosberg know this and that's why the late turn or did he simply do what Rosberg does, try and make a move that he lacked the aptitude to successfully complete?

It doesn't really matter since in the end, the result whether for Hamilton in Austria or for Verstappen yesterday was essentially the same. He's set a precedence for himself now and hence the penalty.

Indeed. I made this point yesterday.
Rosberg has now left himself no wiggle room. If he is involved in anything of a similar vein this season theses 2 incidents are going to be used as 'previous' like it or not.

Any overtakes by him need to be super clean and as we know he doesn't handle pressure well. It may well all go Pete Tong.

[KeiKo403]

Prob not the right topic to put this in but as Rosberg championship hopes have been briefly touched upon a couple of times in the last page or so.....could this be the first ever championship where the driver to win the first 3 races doesn't go on to win the title?

Also, even though I'm a Hamilton fan, I recall hamilton doing a similar move on a ferrari (Kimi I think) back in Fuji 07/08, can't remember which one. He got a penalty then too so this diving in last minite havesn't been accepted for quite sometime now. Lewis learnt his lesson, now Rosberg needs to learn his lesson and start racing cleanly.

[Phil]

My biggest gripe with Rosbergs manoeuvre is that he did not even attempt to turn in and that to me shows the intend of his move. That's pretty similar to driving someone off the track. It's dangerous and not allowed. Had he simply taken the corner, yes, Max might have got a run up on him, but who knows, he might have pulled off the move anyway. Or he might have had a second go without any 5 second penalty. He ruined it all for himself and I hope he learns that this move is not accepted.

If you're braking hard and using 100% of your grip just to stop, then turning the wheel does nothing.

Quite true, but without trying, who knows at what limit he was? See the Vettel incident to see a driver commited to a move and trying to leave room (but failing), and Rosberg who seemingly did it conciously, while under full control of his car and the maneuvre he was attempting. There in lies the rub.

As Niki Lauda said post race, if he had at least made the effort to turn in earlier, it might have been judged differently by the stewards or at least shown better intentions.

[Restomaniac]

My biggest gripe with Rosbergs manoeuvre is that he did not even attempt to turn in and that to me shows the intend of his move. That's pretty similar to driving someone off the track. It's dangerous and not allowed. Had he simply taken the corner, yes, Max might have got a run up on him, but who knows, he might have pulled off the move anyway. Or he might have had a second go without any 5 second penalty. He ruined it all for himself and I hope he learns that this move is not accepted.

If you're braking hard and using 100% of your grip just to stop, then turning the wheel does nothing.

Quite true, but without trying, who knows at what limit he was? See the Vettel incident to see a driver commited to a move and trying to leave room (but failing), and Rosberg who seemingly did it conciously, while under full control of his car and the maneuvre he was attempting. There in lies the rub.

As Niki Lauda said post race, if he had at least made the effort to turn in earlier, it might have been judged differently by the stewards or at least shown better intentions.

And the lack of an attempted turn is the reason many are comparing it to Austria.