Late 70´s and Early 80´s F1 designs

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Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Late 70´s and Early 80´s F1 designs

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Image

Can someone explain well (well means with no speculations, that is what I do now) how those cars with huge rear wheels, tiny front wheels, huge rear wings and tiny or no front wigs worked?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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The cars didn’t use front wings due to the way the underbody created downforce. As speed increases the centre of pressure moved forward, this pushed the nose down and often would lead to the skirts leaking. This then reduced the downforce and lifted the nose back up, this bouncing was called ‘porpoising’. The teams found that the front wing made this worse as the nose pitched downwards the wing became steeper and only added to the nose down attitude.

Not speculation just a sign of my age……

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

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scarbs wrote: Not speculation just a sign of my age……
:)

So, the 1981 pictures I saw with front wings, was when FIA change rules to minimum 6cm ride height?
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"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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I think the wing was removed whenever the teams got the cars underbody working well enough to induce the high speed nose down pitching, thus if the teams had to meet the 6cm rule (and not cheat the hydraulic suspension) then clearly the floor wasnt working as well and the front wing would be needed.

dumrick
dumrick
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
Location: Portugal

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Thanks for the explanation, Craig, I never realized that was the reason. That generation of F1's w/o front wing, in my opinion, were the coolest looking ever. But it may have something to do with the fact that was around 1981/2 (around 6 y.o.) that I started watching F1 with more attention...

Just one thing, I've checked the pictures at racingsportscars.com and the big hype of removing the front wings came in 1982. When was the minimum height rule implemented? Was it 1981? Couldn't it be that with the rock-stiff suspension setups required to control the height of the underbody, porpoising was less of an issue?

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

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It was at the beginning of 1981
http://www.4mula1.ro/history/article/article6.html

Gordon Murray´s Brabham with hydraulic suspension was declared legal since RSM GP.
Colin Chapman´s Lotus with double chassis was declared ilegal
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

fastback33
fastback33
0
Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

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@ Belatti :

Do you have more information about chapman's double chassis? Link would be fantastic!! Thanks in advance!

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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fastback33 - Here's a quote I found on the Lotus 86/88. I'll look for some other material tomorrow.

:wink: I may have pictures ....pictures that I shouldn't have :wink:

Secret Photos of the suspension, chassis & upskirt shots of the tunnels beneath the car Secret Photos

Without a doubt Lotus' most controversial car was the Lotus 86 (1980). Immediately after the introduction of wings to F1 in the 60s, there was a spate of dramatic crashes as the struts used to attach the wing to the axle broke. Therefore the governing body decreed that all wings must be in integral part of the chassis and connected to the wheels only via the suspension. The Lotus 88 had two chassis, one inside the other, connected by a very weak suspension system. The outer one contained the aerodynamic bodywork, but at high speeds the downforce would flatten the inter-chassis suspension, effectively connecting the wings directly to the wheels. The driver, meanwhile, was in the inner chassis, which had its own 'proper' suspension to keep the wheels pressed to the track. The car was within the F1 regulations, was cleared to race by the FIA10 and would clearly have been safe and the fastest car on the track by some way. At the first race of the season, the race stewards11 refused the car permission to race without giving a reason. The car never raced. Chapman had finally reached the limits of what was permissible in F1.

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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[IMG:290:329]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1081 ... delzj7.jpg[/img]

1/4 Scale windtunnel model of the Lotus 86/88
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88
Wikipedia cites F1Technical as the only source of information.
:wink: F1Technical appears in more Google seaches than Google :wink:

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

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Here there is F1Technical link:
http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/473

and another one:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/02/01/b ... th-88-88b/


My comment:
"Gordon Murray´s Brabham with hydraulic suspension was declared legal since RSM GP.
Colin Chapman´s Lotus with double chassis was declared ilegal"

sounds a bit actual, dont you think? :? given the recient facts from FIA saying yes to some and no to others...
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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[IMG:285:380]http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1693 ... 2e9vd1.jpg[/img]
Lotus88 Body to Suspension Upright Shock Absorber and Coil Spring Unit

[IMG:285:214]http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6504 ... b7fml7.jpg[/img]
Lotus88 Front Suspension

[IMG:285:214]http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9770 ... eb6xo2.jpg[/img]
Lotuss88 Rear Suspension

[IMG:285:214]http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3379 ... 7e8fo2.jpg[/img]
Lotus88 Rear Suspension

[IMG:600:449]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4341 ... 9eijd2.jpg[/img]
Lotus88 undercarriage - Note the Side Skirts and Tunnels

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
0
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

Re: Late 70´s and Early 80´s F1 designs

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Blimey it has been a while since I last posted, but I'm sure you haven't missed me 8)

Anyway, as determined in this topic most cars were so close to the ground and had so much downforce they didn't need a front wing. I keep wondering why Toleman with their 1981 car thought otherwise, I mean look at this photo:

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benjabulle
benjabulle
0
Joined: 26 Aug 2004, 21:53

Re: Late 70´s and Early 80´s F1 designs

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In 81 a minimum clearance of 6 cm should be maintained so a huge amount of downforce was lost, that's why most of the cars at the beginning of the season were fitted with a front wing like the one you show. And then G.Murray came with its hydro pneumatic suspension....

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Late 70´s and Early 80´s F1 designs

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Noticed Tomba's new Honda RA302 Technical Article
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RA302 3000cc F1 Engine & Transmission - Air cooling fins everywhere possible, even on the transmission. Although the engine was air cooled by vortex cowling, note the extensive use of fins on the cylinder barrels, very much like air cooled motorcycles and some cars. The oil radiator cooling certainly helped reduce the thermal load significantly.