Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[djos]

Seems like a pretty good approach. Only drawback is that batteries may have overtaken SuperCapacitors for energy density and even power density. Could ideally use the MGU mass as part of the flywheel mass?

All current (pun, ha-ha) hybrid systems are there for some kind of rule compliance, whether it's an emissions legality thing, or an F1 technical regulation thing. It's interesting to ponder the role of hybrid in an uncompromised unregulated performance car.

True, capacitors do have much faster charge/discharge rates which could be useful in this scenario however Lithium-NMC might have better energy density and thus capacity and possibly even more flexible packaging options too.

[Jolle]

Around 20kg together, 200Hp? 10 HP/kg, including storage.

You will want these addresses-

http://www.mclaren.com/careers/

http://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/ongoing-h ... y/careers/

I've started your Letter of Interest for you--

Sir:

I am interested in working with your company. I've recently determined that electric hybrid systems of around 10 HP/kg are quite feasible with current technology, but you continue to persist with supercar hybrid systems that are 5 times as heavy, and with F1 systems that are still 2 times as heavy. I know something that everyone else in your company does not. Specifically...

We're talking about a road car that must outperform a F1 car. There is a lot of skunkworks tech needed to make this thing work. A next (big) step in hybrid tech is one of them. Let loose everything that had been done before.
The McLaren Formula E motor is 26kg and now several years old. Could be at least 30% lighter and more powerful. Same goes for a small "quick boost" ES pack. This car is about pushing boundaries.

[Andres125sx]

True, capacitors do have much faster charge/discharge rates which could be useful in this scenario however Lithium-NMC might have better energy density and thus capacity and possibly even more flexible packaging options too.

I use lithium batteries with 65C discharge rate, wich means they can be fully discharged in 60 seconds or even less. And I´m talking about hobby batteries made for radiocontrolled planes/helis/drones.

I don´t think anyone need more discharging rate than this sincerely, and about charging, people is charging this at up to 10C wich means fully charged in 6 minutes. Probably this is still a limit for hybrid systems tough, as you can harvest some serious energy so even if it´s only for some seconds, the charging rate might be too high

[rscsr]

True, capacitors do have much faster charge/discharge rates which could be useful in this scenario however Lithium-NMC might have better energy density and thus capacity and possibly even more flexible packaging options too.

I use lithium batteries with 65C discharge rate, wich means they can be fully discharged in 60 seconds or even less. And I´m talking about hobby batteries made for radiocontrolled planes/helis/drones.

I don´t think anyone need more discharging rate than this sincerely, and about charging, people is charging this at up to 10C wich means fully charged in 6 minutes. Probably this is still a limit for hybrid systems tough, as you can harvest some serious energy so even if it´s only for some seconds, the charging rate might be too high

May I ask what batteries you use? These rates sound awesome, but how many cycles do they withstand at these rates (with adequat cooling of course)?

[Cold Fussion]

The advantages of hybrid technology for hyper performance cars is so obvious that it would be very low tech if a project wouldn't have a hybrid PU system.

I figure we can take a 2012-era 2.4L V-8 with rev-limit and minimum-weight as a useful metric for IC engine performance. This is 750 hp and 100 kg, so 7.5 hp/kg.

Current F1 hybrid stuff is ~ 45 kg for the whole MGU-K/control electronics/battery package, yes? It puts out 200 hp? So then 4.4 hp/kg.

It appears that any hybrid car will need both a multi-gear transmission and a fuel (petrol) tank in order to use any combo of IC and/or electric. For example, all electric power in a hybrid is originally sourced from the petrol unless you’re doing very short trips or add lots of battery weight. In other words it doesn’t make sense to attribute transmission or petrol weights exclusively to one motive type or the other (IC or electric).

If you were Mr. Newey would you achieve your oodles-of-power target by adding more IC at 7.5 hp/kg, or by adding hybridization at 4.4 hp/kg?

So high performance track cars are lighter with IC-only rather than hybrid. Street cars with catalysts and mufflers would be a closer contest. However, the street-legal aspect of Newey’s hyper-car may be fading. They may end up going for more of a “street-type” car that is not actually production-car road-legal in most developed countries.

I can see a mild hybrid unit that replaces the weight of starter, alternator, and reverse gear with a small unit that adds a useful 100 hp for temporary bursts. This type of system justifies its tubby weight by replacing some of the admittedly tubby IC accessories.

The problem with this is the assumption is engine is more than likely not going to be a small displacement super high revving engine. This car needs around 900-1000hp to meet their performance targets, looking at current high performance road NA engines, the highest specific power is around 150hp/L, which necessitate a 6+L engine. They'll probably have to push this to at least 200hp/L in order for their goals to be reached. How light can they make a 5L V10/V12? I would also suspect that any hybridisation would be much closer to that of the 2009 era cars (1/10th the battery pack size, no MGU-H etc), so the power density can be quite a bit higher than the current F1 cars.

[Andres125sx]

True, capacitors do have much faster charge/discharge rates which could be useful in this scenario however Lithium-NMC might have better energy density and thus capacity and possibly even more flexible packaging options too.

I use lithium batteries with 65C discharge rate, wich means they can be fully discharged in 60 seconds or even less. And I´m talking about hobby batteries made for radiocontrolled planes/helis/drones.

I don´t think anyone need more discharging rate than this sincerely, and about charging, people is charging this at up to 10C wich means fully charged in 6 minutes. Probably this is still a limit for hybrid systems tough, as you can harvest some serious energy so even if it´s only for some seconds, the charging rate might be too high

May I ask what batteries you use? These rates sound awesome, but how many cycles do they withstand at these rates (with adequat cooling of course)?

Turnigy Graphene

There´s a thread on RcGroups where people and specially rampman (the OP) is doing some serious tests (continuous charging and discharging at 30 and 10Cs), and they´re holding up around three times the cycles of normal lithium batteries (900-1000 vs 300), wich is the real advantage of this graphene batteries, as there´s some others with same discharging rate (Tatto claims 75C for theirs) but they don´t last that much.

But at 65C I don´t think they´ll last a tenth of that obviously. I discharge them in around 3 minutes (a bit more or less depending on the flying) so around 20C average, and they get warm, but not hot at all.

[djos]

Andres that's seriously impressive stuff, I imagine that's what would be used in F1 and WEC?

[DiogoBrand]

Just out of curiosity: What would be the downsides of using a CVT?
The main one I can think of is that they'd probably have to develop it from scratch, since I don't think there are any CVT's made for that kind of power. But apart from that, considering weight, volume and every other factor, would it be viable?

[FW17]

There is probably more power loss with a CVT in comparison to a conventional

[graham.reeds]

Just out of curiosity: What would be the downsides of using a CVT?
The main one I can think of is that they'd probably have to develop it from scratch, since I don't think there are any CVT's made for that kind of power. But apart from that, considering weight, volume and every other factor, would it be viable?

Purchase the IP from Williams if they want a strong lightweight CVT.

Transmission loss is more than a conventional transmission, but not massively.

[SR71]

Just out of curiosity: What would be the downsides of using a CVT?
The main one I can think of is that they'd probably have to develop it from scratch, since I don't think there are any CVT's made for that kind of power. But apart from that, considering weight, volume and every other factor, would it be viable?

Purchase the IP from Williams if they want a strong lightweight CVT.




Transmission loss is more than a conventional transmission, but not massively.

Direct drive seems more feasible...

[Pat Pending]

Just out of curiosity: What would be the downsides of using a CVT?
The main one I can think of is that they'd probably have to develop it from scratch, since I don't think there are any CVT's made for that kind of power. But apart from that, considering weight, volume and every other factor, would it be viable?

Purchase the IP from Williams if they want a strong lightweight CVT.


Transmission loss is more than a conventional transmission, but not massively.

Direct drive seems more feasible...

Have a Google of the Koenigsegg(sic) Regera. Turbo IC plus 3 electric motors with single gear direct drive, albeit with a torque converter to allow engine/transmission slip at low speeds.

[SR71]

Purchase the IP from Williams if they want a strong lightweight CVT.


Transmission loss is more than a conventional transmission, but not massively.

Direct drive seems more feasible...

Have a Google of the Koenigsegg(sic) Regera. Turbo IC plus 3 electric motors with single gear direct drive, albeit with a torque converter to allow engine/transmission slip at low speeds.

Thats what I meant

[AratzH]

Is this an ECO version of AM's hypercar or was it a source of inspiration for Newey?

[Jolle]

Is this an ECO version of AM's hypercar or was it a source of inspiration for Newey?

http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/a ... k=t3KBxJpV

https://ecourbanlab.com/wp-content/uplo ... BANLAB.jpg

Well... a Porsche 911 also started off, more or less, as a (fast) variation of a Volkswagen Beetle...