2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

[dans79]

Does anybody else have a felling about overpaid weirdos hanging their balls into a pool?

Nah, I have more of a problem with those who complain about what rich people do in their free time.

[diego.liv]

Not sure why they should talk "austrian". btw IIRC there aren't races in Switzerland because of the Mercedes LeMans incident. My granny was in Austria and she swears there were times/days of driving restrictions, driving at all, not simply "Euro 0,1 verboten" and so..wasn't able to find info, can anyone confirm?

can confirm the car free days. Basically you could choose a day where you couldn't drive your car at all (that was for 5weeks in 1974) and the maximum speed has been lowered to 100kph. The German Wikipedia has some further info https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96lpreiskrise (somehow strange that there is no English translation for that article).

Thank you really much

[Edax]

Does anyone feel that the new clutch rules add too much randomness to the starts? It is clearly not driver dependent.

How is it not driver dependent?

Statistics. Nico and Lewis have had and equal amount of fluffed starts. Even for other teams there is not much the driver can do to ensure he gets a good start. It is very dependent on the conditions of the clutch after the formation lap.

That is for me a let off. I got a feeling, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the start is for 90% predetermined by how well the clutch is primed. Get it right and you have a good launch, get it wrong and the car will either bog down or spin the wheels. So we still have a programmed start, only the driver is doing the programming not the engineer.

With Ham, Gut, and Ves, we might well find out that they made a sequence error, or the software was buggy, they chose a wrong setting or something like that.

But I'm not interested in the ability of the driver to program a clutch, just as much as I am not interested in how well they can write an engine mapping, or change spark plugs for that matter.

I am interested in how well they drive a car. That means feeling and controlling grip, clutch slip, revs etc. If we have a push-button start, then we might as well have the engineer program the button.

[/rant off]

[Sonador]

Before the start of the race, Rosberg complained that the pactice start was bad.
So he adusted it, and got it right.

Both cars have clutch engineers at Mercedes??

[dans79]

Before the start of the race, Rosberg complained that the pactice start was bad.
So he adusted it, and got it right.

Last time i checked, this was against the rules, so I doubt he changed anything.

[PlatinumZealot]

Before the start of the race, Rosberg complained that the pactice start was bad.
So he adusted it, and got it right.

Both cars have clutch engineers at Mercedes??

Yes, but many times in the year. Both drivers said the start was good on the formation lap and then on the start everything went pear shaped.

Even when the computer was finding the bite-point with the double bite clutch there was still some variability, but with the single bite clutch, the drivers are finding it impossible to get consistently.

Nico was swamped in Germany. In Spa he was OK. In Italy he was below average and he actually got caught a little by the Ferraris there. Hamilton had a good initial bite, but then had tonnes of wheel spin. Verstappen stalled!
I just don't think it is just down to the driver feeling-out the clutch and feathering the throttle once he set the bite-point. I feel some other factors are at play that overall it is 10% in the control of the driver at best. If Nico truly gets a hang of it, let us see how he does at the next race. Actually, It would be great if a new thread of opened about driver launch statistics.

[SR71]

Before the start of the race, Rosberg complained that the pactice start was bad.
So he adusted it, and got it right.

Both cars have clutch engineers at Mercedes??

Yes, but many times in the year. Both drivers said the start was good on the formation lap and then on the start everything went pear shaped.

Even when the computer was finding the bite-point with the double bite clutch there was still some variability, but with the single bite clutch, the drivers are finding it impossible to get consistently.

Nico was swamped in Germany. In Spa he was OK. In Italy he was below average and he actually got caught a little by the Ferraris there. Hamilton had a good initial bite, but then had tonnes of wheel spin. Verstappen stalled!
I just don't think it is just down to the driver feeling-out the clutch and feathering the throttle once he set the bite-point. I feel some other factors are at play that overall it is 10% in the control of the driver at best. If Nico truly gets a hang of it, let us see how he does at the next race. Actually, It would be great if a new thread of opened about driver launch statistics.

As with all things in F1 drivers only make up the last 10-20%. Grip, balance, downforce, shifting smoothness, braking performance, etc. ALL managed by engineers for the first 80-90%.

I think these slightly random starts are no different and up to the teams and drivers to perfect.

Nobody is forcing Merc from refining their starts to be the best on the grid or even quickest in history. It's simply a challenge they must over come.

It's not like pirelli is handing them standardized clutches....

[rayden]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

[ChrisDanger]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

A nice analysis posted elsewhere:

I was thinking about how much actually went in to getting this overtake done. Superficially it might look like simply a ballsy and somewhat risky dive, I think there was more to it than that. Some of this is speculation, and it assumes that Ricciardo would be slightly faster overall than Bottas in a race-length time trial.

Timeline of events:

• Both cars start on supersoft tyres. Ricciardo doesn't push too hard in the opening laps, instead putting in fairly consistent 1:28.3 times for the entire stint.
• Bottas is faster in the opening laps, but slows down towards the end of his stint.
• Bottas pits somewhat early for soft tyres on lap 13. Ricciardo does the same on lap 16. Ricciardo emerges 1.5s behind Bottas with a 3 lap tyre advantage. Ricciardo pressures Bottas for the entire stint, but is unable to pass. Good strategy thus far from Williams to avoid being undercut, and keeping the faster car behind with their straight line advantage.
• Despite still putting in consistent times on 17-lap old softs, on lap 30 Bottas again pits early to avoid the undercut. He fits another set of softs, probably fearing that supersofts would not last the remaining 23 laps. Now in clear air, Ricciardo increases his pace but is slower than Bottas on fresh tyres.
• Ricciardo pits on lap 37 for supersofts, and now has a 7-lap tyre advantage and softer compound, but is 4 seconds behind Bottas. It has taken the entire race up to this point to accumulate this advantage and RIC has 16 laps left to make use of it.
• Ricciardo steadily closes the gap, but doesn't go all-out at first. After his first lap out of the pits, Red Bull tells Ricciardo he was 1 second faster than Bottas, and Ricciardo then slows his pace a little on subsequent laps. Williams is heard telling Bottas that Ricciardo is closing "slowly", but has twice as much tyre degredation. When Ricciardo is approaching DRS range, Red Bull is heard telling Ricciardo his batteries are fully charged and to go for it. Ricciardo does the fastest lap of the race (up to that point) to enter DRS range and then makes the overtake into turn 1.

So there were a lot of things that went into actually making the overtake:

• If Bottas had not been lulled into a false sense of security by his team, Ricciardo's leisurely chase in the final stint, and Ricciardo's inability to mount a serious challenge during the middle stint, Bottas might have driven more defensively and could have easily blocked the move by taking the inside line (or the middle of the track) himself to force Ricciardo to the outside.
• If Ricciardo had been slightly less decisive, and waited until the next lap to see if he could get closer, Bottas might not have been taken by surprise and could have defended.
• If Ricciardo had closed up more quickly and and not fully prepared, not only would Bottas probably have been more alert, but sitting in dirty air even for a couple of laps while he prepared might have made it impossible to pass.
• If Ricciardo had been impatient in the first stint instead of managing his tyres he might not have been able to develop his tyre advantage to as large as it was.
• If Ricciardo had have tried a similar lunge during the middle stint and failed, Bottas probably would have been more ready for it in the final stint.
• If Williams didn't pre-empt the undercut as effectively as they did, then they probably would have been undercut, and Red Bull wouldn't have had to pass on track. But they also would have had fresher tyres and potentially a role reversal with Bottas on supersoft and Ricciardo on soft, and might have had a chance to re-take the position.
• If Bottas was not expecting it at all and didn't see Ricciardo coming there might have been contact.
• If Bottas didn't take the cooling scoops off his helmet for qualifying he might not have beaten Ricciardo by 0.001 seconds, and not been in front to begin with.

I thought it was interesting to think about how the overtake wasn't just an isolated move in a single moment, but the culmination of a weekend-long battle in terms of both driving and strategy. Good stuff from these two with not much between them all weekend.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

Code: Select all

A nice analysis posted [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/517j3v/what_it_took_for_ricciardo_to_overtake_bottas/?ref=search_posts]elsewhere[/url]:

[quote]I was thinking about how much actually went in to getting this overtake done. Superficially it might look like simply a ballsy and somewhat risky dive, I think there was more to it than that. Some of this is speculation, and it assumes that Ricciardo would be slightly faster overall than Bottas in a race-length time trial.

[b]Timeline of events:[/b]

[list][*]Both cars start on supersoft tyres. Ricciardo doesn't push too hard in the opening laps, instead putting in fairly consistent 1:28.3 times for the entire stint. [*]Bottas is faster in the opening laps, but slows down towards the end of his stint.
[*]Bottas pits somewhat early for soft tyres on lap 13. Ricciardo does the same on lap 16. Ricciardo emerges 1.5s behind Bottas with a 3 lap tyre advantage. Ricciardo pressures Bottas for the entire stint, but is unable to pass. Good strategy thus far from Williams to avoid being undercut, and keeping the faster car behind with their straight line advantage.
[*]Despite still putting in consistent times on 17-lap old softs, on lap 30 Bottas again pits early to avoid the undercut. He fits another set of softs, probably fearing that supersofts would not last the remaining 23 laps. Now in clear air, Ricciardo increases his pace but is slower than Bottas on fresh tyres.
[*]Ricciardo pits on lap 37 for supersofts, and now has a 7-lap tyre advantage and softer compound, but is 4 seconds behind Bottas. It has taken the entire race up to this point to accumulate this advantage and RIC has 16 laps left to make use of it.
[*]Ricciardo steadily closes the gap, but doesn't go all-out at first. After his first lap out of the pits, Red Bull tells Ricciardo he was 1 second faster than Bottas, and Ricciardo then slows his pace a little on subsequent laps. Williams is heard telling Bottas that Ricciardo is closing "slowly", but has twice as much tyre degredation. When Ricciardo is approaching DRS range, Red Bull is heard telling Ricciardo his batteries are fully charged and to go for it. Ricciardo does the fastest lap of the race (up to that point) to enter DRS range and then makes the overtake into turn 1.[/list]
[b]So there were a lot of things that went into actually making the overtake:[/b]

[list][*]If Bottas had not been lulled into a false sense of security by his team, Ricciardo's leisurely chase in the final stint, and Ricciardo's inability to mount a serious challenge during the middle stint, Bottas might have driven more defensively and could have easily blocked the move by taking the inside line (or the middle of the track) himself to force Ricciardo to the outside.
[*]If Ricciardo had been slightly less decisive, and waited until the next lap to see if he could get closer, Bottas might not have been taken by surprise and could have defended.
[*]If Ricciardo had closed up more quickly and and not fully prepared, not only would Bottas probably have been more alert, but sitting in dirty air even for a couple of laps while he prepared might have made it impossible to pass.
[*]If Ricciardo had been impatient in the first stint instead of managing his tyres he might not have been able to develop his tyre advantage to as large as it was.
[*]If Ricciardo had have tried a similar lunge during the middle stint and failed, Bottas probably would have been more ready for it in the final stint.
[*]If Williams didn't pre-empt the undercut as effectively as they did, then they probably would have been undercut, and Red Bull wouldn't have had to pass on track. But they also would have had fresher tyres and potentially a role reversal with Bottas on supersoft and Ricciardo on soft, and might have had a chance to re-take the position.
[*]If Bottas was not expecting it at all and didn't see Ricciardo coming there might have been contact.
[*]If Bottas didn't take the cooling scoops off his helmet for qualifying he might not have beaten Ricciardo by 0.001 seconds, and not been in front to begin with.[/list]

I thought it was interesting to think about how the overtake wasn't just an isolated move in a single moment, but the culmination of a weekend-long battle in terms of both driving and strategy. Good stuff from these two with not much between them all weekend.[/quote]

I think Williams made a massive mistake in not understanding who to race.

When Bottas had Lewis behind, there was no need for Bottas to screw up his own race by trying to keep Lewis behind. In all probability, it was a matter of time that Lewis would have overtaken him. But in the process, Bottas destroyed his own tyres by fighting hard, which allowed Red Bull to easiliy execute the strategy explained above. If Williams would have been clever in letting Lewis pass, they would have saved the position that they lost to Ricciardo.

Having full knowledge of the fact that, they don't have the kind of tire life that Mercedes or Red Bull has, they went for the adventure and paid the price. Time and again, Williams have failed to optimize their race earnings with poor strategy calls. They need to look at Force India to learn things.

[Tim.Wright]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

A nice analysis posted elsewhere:

I was thinking about how much actually went in to getting this overtake done. Superficially it might look like simply a ballsy and somewhat risky dive, I think there was more to it than that. Some of this is speculation, and it assumes that Ricciardo would be slightly faster overall than Bottas in a race-length time trial....

I believe this is what old people refer to as "racing".

[Vasconia]

Does anyone feel that the new clutch rules add too much randomness to the starts?

No.

+1

Is Mercedes the team who has more problems with the starts. And its Hamilton who has more problems than anyone else with the starts. So he should work hard to improve this area. Nico has been consistently better than him.

[Vasconia]

Rosberg is fluent in about 5 languages, including German, English, French and Italian.

His spanish is much better than my english too

For sure your English is better than my Spanish.

Ok, we all agree that we hate Nico due to his vast knowledge in six languages.

Well, with some practice I hope to be fluent in 5 languages in a near future. So I am not that far.

[Vasconia]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

Not the first that he overtakes in this way, so far from the corner. He is awesome.

[basti313]

What a move from ricciardo. Holy ****.

Not the first that he overtakes in this way, so far from the corner. He is awesome.

Well...these moves have always two sides: There are only few who do them (Ric, Ham, Ves...) and only few that "allow" them without crashing (Vet, Bot, Rai, Alo, But...). This has to come together so that we can see such a nice move. In other configurations like Ham-Ros, or anything with the blind guys like Ves, Nas, Kvy... we would see carbon parts flying.

But of course this is what makes the driver to a champion: "Try it and crash it or be behind" was the usual rule when approaching Senna or when Senna approached anyone else. Schumacher even decided a WC with that...he left the decision to Hill...either stay behind or crash it.