2016 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 16-18 September

[Juzh]

That would require deployment on every single straight to explain the grpahs we are seeing, which is certainly not the best ERS tactic.

Man, if you believe they're deploying for 2s or 0.2s then... Yes, they might do this on a straight that is 3s off full throttle. But on longer straights they (merc) pretty much deploy for almost entire straights (with perhaps some exceptions), whereas renault and even ferrari do not.

I mean just look at this difference between ferrari and merc in baku:
https://streamable.com/mlyc
look at the speedo. Merc is in the league of their own on the amount of ERS they're able to deploy.

Mercedes doesn't accelerate any more from the beginning of the pit entry. Ferrari becomes slower from the beginning of the pit entry. So to me it looks like both stop deploying at pretty much the same time. The Mercedes has to lift during the corners beforehand, while the Ferrari just drives full throttle with about 295km/h, instead of 285km/h of the Mercedes at the same position. So this indicates that Ferrari used more downforce. Therefore they most likely had (even if both had the same efficiency) more induced drag.

Don't be silly. Also your logic is flawed. Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage, whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag? Merc would have to have literally no wings to achieve that difference, given how drs on its own is worth about 12-13 kmh. Ferrari didn't run anything special in Baku, just some regular low-mid DF setup. Or are we now saying ferrari is also a draggy car? Given how we're throwing this around for every car now.

Only hamilton was lifting trough there for whatever reason. Rosberg wasn't. Even in the first lap he went flat trough there at 300 kmh. Even perez was flat trough there.

[ChrisDanger]

I mean just look at this difference between ferrari and merc in baku:
https://streamable.com/mlyc
look at the speedo. Merc is in the league of their own on the amount of ERS they're able to deploy.

Sorry, I don't see how you're able to tell when they're deploying. Do you think Mercedes are deploying on every straight and for the entire straight? Andy Cowell's quote above suggests they have around 3 seconds of deployment available per lap.

[Juzh]

I mean just look at this difference between ferrari and merc in baku:
https://streamable.com/mlyc
look at the speedo. Merc is in the league of their own on the amount of ERS they're able to deploy.

Sorry, I don't see how you're able to tell when they're deploying. Do you think Mercedes are deploying on every straight and for the entire straight? Andy Cowell's quote above suggests they have around 3 seconds of deployment available per lap.

3s a lap hahaha. I think we're done here. Sorry.

[ChrisDanger]

Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage...

You mean when the Ferrari pulls out of the Manor's slipstream?

...whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag?

Reducing drag does mch more to increase top speed than increasing power. Ask any race car aerodynamicist.

3s a lap hahaha. I think we're done here. Sorry.

Okay, so it's more like 33. Just because I had no idea how much deployment time they have doesn't make your entire argument right.

[Juzh]

Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage...

You mean when the Ferrari pulls out of the Manor's slipstream?

...whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag?

Reducing drag does mch more to increase top speed than increasing power. Ask any race car aerodynamicist.

3s a lap hahaha. I think we're done here. Sorry.

Okay, so it's more like 33. Just because I had no idea how much deployment time they have doesn't make your entire argument right.

what slipstream? There's not a car in front for the next 500m of that ferrari.

2nd argument is irrelevant here even though it's true. It doesn't explain why ferrari's speed suddenly drops. Only ERS deficiency explains it. ICE itself can not sustain 325-330 kmh on its own and hence speed starts to drop. Merc's doesn't, indicating their ERS is deploying pretty much entire straight. Probably not at full power, but it deploys enough for it to make a significant difference.

33s is a throw away number. It corresponds to maximum ES output to the K over the lap. Direct MGU-H transfer is not accounted for in that number. Nor is it accounted for lower than maximum outputs. You could deploy for 66s at half the power. There's about a million variables in that number.

[rscsr]

Man, if you believe they're deploying for 2s or 0.2s then... Yes, they might do this on a straight that is 3s off full throttle. But on longer straights they (merc) pretty much deploy for almost entire straights (with perhaps some exceptions), whereas renault and even ferrari do not.

I mean just look at this difference between ferrari and merc in baku:
https://streamable.com/mlyc
look at the speedo. Merc is in the league of their own on the amount of ERS they're able to deploy.

Mercedes doesn't accelerate any more from the beginning of the pit entry. Ferrari becomes slower from the beginning of the pit entry. So to me it looks like both stop deploying at pretty much the same time. The Mercedes has to lift during the corners beforehand, while the Ferrari just drives full throttle with about 295km/h, instead of 285km/h of the Mercedes at the same position. So this indicates that Ferrari used more downforce. Therefore they most likely had (even if both had the same efficiency) more induced drag.

Don't be silly. Also your logic is flawed. Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage, whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag? Merc would have to have literally no wings to achieve that difference, given how drs on its own is worth about 12-13 kmh. Ferrari didn't run anything special in Baku, just some regular low-mid DF setup. Or are we now saying ferrari is also a draggy car? Given how we're throwing this around for every car now.

Only hamilton was lifting trough there for whatever reason. Rosberg wasn't. Even in the first lap he went flat trough there at 300 kmh. Even perez was flat trough there.

Mercedes where using their low downforce rear wing, while Ferrari used pretty much the same rear wing they used in Hungary. Therefore I am pretty sure they were running more downforce and therefore more drag.

[Juzh]

Mercedes doesn't accelerate any more from the beginning of the pit entry. Ferrari becomes slower from the beginning of the pit entry. So to me it looks like both stop deploying at pretty much the same time. The Mercedes has to lift during the corners beforehand, while the Ferrari just drives full throttle with about 295km/h, instead of 285km/h of the Mercedes at the same position. So this indicates that Ferrari used more downforce. Therefore they most likely had (even if both had the same efficiency) more induced drag.

Don't be silly. Also your logic is flawed. Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage, whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag? Merc would have to have literally no wings to achieve that difference, given how drs on its own is worth about 12-13 kmh. Ferrari didn't run anything special in Baku, just some regular low-mid DF setup. Or are we now saying ferrari is also a draggy car? Given how we're throwing this around for every car now.

Only hamilton was lifting trough there for whatever reason. Rosberg wasn't. Even in the first lap he went flat trough there at 300 kmh. Even perez was flat trough there.

Mercedes where using their low downforce rear wing, while Ferrari used pretty much the same rear wing they used in Hungary. Therefore I am pretty sure they were running more downforce and therefore more drag.

I suggest you check what you write prior to writing it.
Ferrari baku: https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/743352477169258501
Missing top element.

Ferrari Hungary:



Not to mention you failed to acknowledge sudden speed drop.

[ChrisDanger]

what slipstream? There's not a car in front for the next 500m of that ferrari.

Sorry, must've been tripping...

Going back to the graph though, if what you're saying is true, then Verstappen's speed should drop off before the braking zones, but it doesn't. What session was that streamable from? Is Raikonnen lifting and coasting perhaps?

[Juzh]

what slipstream? There's not a car in front for the next 500m of that ferrari.

Sorry, must've been tripping...

Going back to the graph though, if what you're saying is true, then Verstappen's speed should drop off before the braking zones, but it doesn't. What session was that streamable from? Is Raikonnen lifting and coasting perhaps?

http://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Si ... 967999.jpg

I mean you can clearly see red trace being higher on nearly every straight. Even article itself from which those traces emanate says renault lacks ers deployment.

You can see on the speedo rai is full throttle trough the entire straight, no lift and coast involved at that time. It's from the race lap 12 and lap 14.

edit. I will say this. Red bull did have seemingly more wing in silverstone, therefore it did affect their top speed A LITTLE. Lack of ERS affected it a tonne more. Red bull was still faster than both renaults in all high speed speed traps.

[mrluke]

Don't be silly. Also your logic is flawed. Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage, whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag? Merc would have to have literally no wings to achieve that difference, given how drs on its own is worth about 12-13 kmh. Ferrari didn't run anything special in Baku, just some regular low-mid DF setup. Or are we now saying ferrari is also a draggy car? Given how we're throwing this around for every car now.

Only hamilton was lifting trough there for whatever reason. Rosberg wasn't. Even in the first lap he went flat trough there at 300 kmh. Even perez was flat trough there.

Does it really only take 160bhp to get from 315kmh to 341kmh?

[Juzh]

I guess it depends on the drag levels, which we know were not the highest in baku overall, or rather were pretty low.

[rscsr]

Don't be silly. Also your logic is flawed. Ferrari's top speed even drops massively at the end of straight from 325 down to like 315, clearly indicating lack of ERS usage, whereas hamilton's actually increases at the end of straight up to 341. 25 kmh worth of difference in drag? Merc would have to have literally no wings to achieve that difference, given how drs on its own is worth about 12-13 kmh. Ferrari didn't run anything special in Baku, just some regular low-mid DF setup. Or are we now saying ferrari is also a draggy car? Given how we're throwing this around for every car now.

Only hamilton was lifting trough there for whatever reason. Rosberg wasn't. Even in the first lap he went flat trough there at 300 kmh. Even perez was flat trough there.

Mercedes where using their low downforce rear wing, while Ferrari used pretty much the same rear wing they used in Hungary. Therefore I am pretty sure they were running more downforce and therefore more drag.

I suggest you check what you write prior to writing it.
Ferrari baku:
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/743352477169258501
http://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Fe ... 957507.jpg
Missing top element.

Ferrari Hungary:
https://s32.postimg.org/8fuebmnit/f1_hu ... detail.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn-DIWEXYAAUQQZ.jpg:large

Not to mention you failed to acknowledge sudden speed drop.

yeah, it is still pretty much the same wing. How much less DF do you guess that wing produced? Not much less I'd recon. And I said, that both pretty much begin harvesting at the same place. Therefore if you can run at your top speed with only your ice you hold your speed, as Mercedes did and you lose speed when you can't.

I tried a power reduction of 150kW at a certain point and look what I was able to construct. 2 cars with the same power and different amounts of drag can reconstruct pretty much what that clip shows.

[Juzh]

yeah, it is still pretty much the same wing. How much less DF do you guess that wing produced? Not much less I'd recon. And I said, that both pretty much begin harvesting at the same place. Therefore if you can run at your top speed with only your ice you hold your speed, as Mercedes did and you lose speed when you can't.

I tried a power reduction of 150kW at a certain point and look what I was able to construct. 2 cars with the same power and different amounts of drag can reconstruct pretty much what that clip shows.
http://i.imgur.com/JPesLjn.png

No, it is NOT pretty much the same wing. Now you're just blind if you think that. Go put a hand out the window of a car at 100 kmh horizntal and then vertical. Feel the massive difference. Now imagine this at 300 with a surface area 40 times larger (eyeballing this number hard). Baku wing has massively lower AOE and is even missing an element on the front wing. That not in any way shape or form "pretty much" the same wing as in hungary. I see you have no idea what you're talking about.

And I said, that both pretty much begin harvesting at the same place. Therefore if you can run at your top speed with only your ice you hold your speed, as Mercedes did and you lose speed when you can't.

This is just a bunch of gibberish and doesn't explain or mean anything. You've really sealed yourself with that wing argument there anyway. Bye.

[NL_Fer]

Isn't their more footage from the track? If ERS dissengages by itself the rear light will flash on.

[FoxHound]

Baku spec rear wings. Clearly differing philosphies, where the Mercedes runs less drag near the pillars, but a steeper section where the airbox takes most of the air.





As for Silverstone....Red Bull clearly ran far more rear wing than Mercedes...allied to rake and a larger surface area on the front wing. Basically a drag block...




I mean it's clear as day.
You cant sit and hide behind the engines, when Mercedes were beating Red Bull through corners with less wing!
Note for any pedants, not all corners were won by the Mercedes. But it won more than it lost through the twisties, and with less rear wing.