Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[NL_Fer]

In Spa i was in Silver 1, just next to the pit exit, down to Eau Rouge. I noticed a kerosene like small during the formation lap.

[Juzh]

Finally on a tangent, I've always said that MGU-H output and recovery is unlimited as well as energy going to and from the battery to the MGU-H. Given that the energy between these two systems is un-metered, wouldn't it make sense to make them as powerful as absolutely possible within the constraints of the regulations? We've worked out the turbo takes roughly 60-80kW of energy to spool up fully. 4MJ would only be enough to spool the turbo for roughly a minute per lap, then you have no energy for other things, but if you have a 10MJ battery pack, you can do your 4MJ per lap deployment and have enough energy to keep the turbo on tap at all times, on top of whatever other system you're running on the car.

Why would you waste battery power to keep the turbo spooled when you're on full throttle? Exhaust gasses will do that on their own. If mgu-h would always require spooling how are you going to recover anything from it?

How are you gonna store 10MJ of energy when rules state the difference between maximum and minimum state of charge is 4MJ? Also, how are you gonna harvest 10MJ over a single lap in the first place?

[godlameroso]

Finally on a tangent, I've always said that MGU-H output and recovery is unlimited as well as energy going to and from the battery to the MGU-H. Given that the energy between these two systems is un-metered, wouldn't it make sense to make them as powerful as absolutely possible within the constraints of the regulations? We've worked out the turbo takes roughly 60-80kW of energy to spool up fully. 4MJ would only be enough to spool the turbo for roughly a minute per lap, then you have no energy for other things, but if you have a 10MJ battery pack, you can do your 4MJ per lap deployment and have enough energy to keep the turbo on tap at all times, on top of whatever other system you're running on the car.

Why would you waste battery power to keep the turbo spooled when you're on full throttle? Exhaust gasses will do that on their own. If mgu-h would always require spooling how are you going to recover anything from it?

How are you gonna store 10MJ of energy when rules state the difference between maximum and minimum state of charge is 4MJ? Also, how are you gonna harvest 10MJ over a single lap in the first place?

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge. It doesn't say ANYTHING about how much ES <-> MGU-H, anywhere at all, and I challenge you to find where if I'm mistaken I'll gladly own up to it.



So you can use as big as ES as you can fit within 20-25kg. You don't have to exclusively run the turbine off the MGU-H, but you could if your battery pack had enough storage. And being able to do such would give you huge advantage, it instantly makes the power unit more flexible. 10MJ may be too much to harvest per lap with current tech, I was just using that figure for effect, but 6MJ per lap is certainly possible.

[gruntguru]

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge.

Where does it say that?

Sure the rate of electric transfer (power) from MGUH << >>ES is unlimited, but the ES is limited to 4 MJ. (the difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4 MJ at any time the car is on the track)

[godlameroso]

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge.

Where does it say that?

Sure the rate of electric transfer (power) from MGUH << >>ES is unlimited, but the ES is limited to 4 MJ. (the difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4 MJ at any time the car is on the track)

That's true it does say that, maybe you're right. This is something I'd love to get a clarification on, because if I'm interpreting things correctly the MGU-H doesn't count against your state of charge, only energy going between the ES and MGU-K. The language is a bit vague and could be open to interpretation. I don't think any engine manufacturer would hesitate to get clarification on this, if you had an extra 2 or 3 MJ per lap to burn on just the turbo compared to your rivals you'd have an enormous advantage.

[FW17]

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge. It doesn't say ANYTHING about how much ES <-> MGU-H, anywhere at all, and I challenge you to find where if I'm mistaken I'll gladly own up to it.

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

So you can use as big as ES as you can fit within 20-25kg. You don't have to exclusively run the turbine off the MGU-H, but you could if your battery pack had enough storage. And being able to do such would give you huge advantage, it instantly makes the power unit more flexible. 10MJ may be too much to harvest per lap with current tech, I was just using that figure for effect, but 6MJ per lap is certainly possible.

6MJ is possible and it has been published by manufacturers

MM published 5 MJ for baku (1.3 from K and 3.7 from H)

But if you run the turbine with H you get 40 seconds with 2 MJ assuming 10% crank power used for turbine, typical avg lap of 1.5 min would require 60 seconds of full throttle so you will need 3 MJ just for the turbine

So if you put a 10 MJ battery it will help only in qualifying and no help in race

[rscsr]

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge. It doesn't say ANYTHING about how much ES <-> MGU-H, anywhere at all, and I challenge you to find where if I'm mistaken I'll gladly own up to it.

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

So you can use as big as ES as you can fit within 20-25kg. You don't have to exclusively run the turbine off the MGU-H, but you could if your battery pack had enough storage. And being able to do such would give you huge advantage, it instantly makes the power unit more flexible. 10MJ may be too much to harvest per lap with current tech, I was just using that figure for effect, but 6MJ per lap is certainly possible.

6MJ is possible and it has been published by manufacturers

MM published 5 MJ for baku (1.3 from K and 3.7 from H)

But if you run the turbine with H you get 40 seconds with 2 MJ assuming 10% crank power used for turbine, typical avg lap of 1.5 min would require 60 seconds of full throttle so you will need 3 MJ just for the turbine

So if you put a 10 MJ battery it will help only in qualifying and no help in race

Could you please give a source for the 6MJ. I assume that not all from the H goes to the ES. Therefore a part of the 3.7MJ from the H are delivered directly to the K and therefore doesn't count against the ES size.

[Brian Coat]

Re: Energy flow diagram, App. 3

Just because the MGU-H flows to the ES are unregulated, this does not mean they will not be measured.

Without them you cannot measure/estimate ES Charge, which is regulated.

So the chances of the regulators saying "Gee we forgot to monitor MGU-H energy flows whilst monitoring ES SoC" is ... low.

[godlameroso]

Re: Energy flow diagram, App. 3

Just because the MGU-H flows to the ES are unregulated, this does not mean they will not be measured.

Without them you cannot measure/estimate ES Charge, which is regulated.

So the chances of the regulators saying "Gee we forgot to monitor MGU-H energy flows whilst monitoring ES SoC" is ... low.

Technically there's no limit on the overall charge of the battery, only that you only deploy no more than 4MJ to the k per lap. Again this seems open to interpretation because they could have so easily have been a little more specific. Saying something like the total capacity of the ES SoC is 4 MJ per lap when mguh and k harvesting are combined. But they don't say that, so you have to assume unlimited really does mean unlimited. They could have at least said that power from the ES to the H is limited by SoC per lap. They don't say that though, they say unlimited. I honestly don't see what the problem is, as long as your SoC is 4MJ per lap and you abide by not deploying more than that to the K per lap as per regulations.

[rscsr]

Re: Energy flow diagram, App. 3

Just because the MGU-H flows to the ES are unregulated, this does not mean they will not be measured.

Without them you cannot measure/estimate ES Charge, which is regulated.

So the chances of the regulators saying "Gee we forgot to monitor MGU-H energy flows whilst monitoring ES SoC" is ... low.

Technically there's no limit on the overall charge of the battery, only that you only deploy no more than 4MJ to the k per lap. Again this seems open to interpretation because they could have so easily have been a little more specific. Saying something like the total capacity of the ES SoC is 4 MJ per lap when mguh and k harvesting are combined. But they don't say that, so you have to assume unlimited really does mean unlimited. They could have at least said that power from the ES to the H is limited by SoC per lap. They don't say that though, they say unlimited. I honestly don't see what the problem is, as long as your SoC is 4MJ per lap and you abide by not deploying more than that to the K per lap as per regulations.

The text in Energy Store of the power unit energy flow says:
The difference between the macimum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.
So you can charg and discharge the ES with the MGUH as much as you want, but you can't have more than 4MJ in the ES.

[godlameroso]

You can't have more than 4MJ as SoC(as in energy available to the K) it doesn't mean that the battery capacity is exactly 4MJ. Normally when you speak of battery capacity you speak of it in terms of KW hrs, look at the tesla, the state of charge is not the same as the total battery capacity. There's always a margin left, otherwise you'd brick your car.

[henry]

Re: Energy flow diagram, App. 3

Just because the MGU-H flows to the ES are unregulated, this does not mean they will not be measured.

Without them you cannot measure/estimate ES Charge, which is regulated.

So the chances of the regulators saying "Gee we forgot to monitor MGU-H energy flows whilst monitoring ES SoC" is ... low.

Technically there's no limit on the overall charge of the battery, only that you only deploy no more than 4MJ to the k per lap. Again this seems open to interpretation because they could have so easily have been a little more specific. Saying something like the total capacity of the ES SoC is 4 MJ per lap when mguh and k harvesting are combined. But they don't say that, so you have to assume unlimited really does mean unlimited. They could have at least said that power from the ES to the H is limited by SoC per lap. They don't say that though, they say unlimited. I honestly don't see what the problem is, as long as your SoC is 4MJ per lap and you abide by not deploying more than that to the K per lap as per regulations.

The text in Energy Store of the power unit energy flow says:
The difference between the macimum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.
So you can charg and discharge the ES with the MGUH as much as you want, but you can't have more than 4MJ in the ES.

To be pedantic. It is possible to comply with this regulation by cycling between any two States of Charge 4 MJ apart. I don't know if there are technical advantages to not discharging right down to zero or if deployment regimes ever get close to zero. I would expect that most of the time during the race the cycle amplitude is around 2 MJ. Deep discharge is probably relatively rare.

[godlameroso]

Technically there's no limit on the overall charge of the battery, only that you only deploy no more than 4MJ to the k per lap. Again this seems open to interpretation because they could have so easily have been a little more specific. Saying something like the total capacity of the ES SoC is 4 MJ per lap when mguh and k harvesting are combined. But they don't say that, so you have to assume unlimited really does mean unlimited. They could have at least said that power from the ES to the H is limited by SoC per lap. They don't say that though, they say unlimited. I honestly don't see what the problem is, as long as your SoC is 4MJ per lap and you abide by not deploying more than that to the K per lap as per regulations.

The text in Energy Store of the power unit energy flow says:
The difference between the macimum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.
So you can charg and discharge the ES with the MGUH as much as you want, but you can't have more than 4MJ in the ES.

To be pedantic. It is possible to comply with this regulation by cycling between any two States of Charge 4 MJ apart. I don't know if there are technical advantages to not discharging right down to zero or if deployment regimes ever get close to zero. I would expect that most of the time during the race the cycle amplitude is around 2 MJ. Deep discharge is probably relatively rare.

Deep discharge tends to brick Li-ion batteries.

[godlameroso]

Simple, if you look at the regulation they only measure ES <-> MGU-K to determine the state of charge. It doesn't say ANYTHING about how much ES <-> MGU-H, anywhere at all, and I challenge you to find where if I'm mistaken I'll gladly own up to it.

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

So you can use as big as ES as you can fit within 20-25kg. You don't have to exclusively run the turbine off the MGU-H, but you could if your battery pack had enough storage. And being able to do such would give you huge advantage, it instantly makes the power unit more flexible. 10MJ may be too much to harvest per lap with current tech, I was just using that figure for effect, but 6MJ per lap is certainly possible.

6MJ is possible and it has been published by manufacturers

MM published 5 MJ for baku (1.3 from K and 3.7 from H)

But if you run the turbine with H you get 40 seconds with 2 MJ assuming 10% crank power used for turbine, typical avg lap of 1.5 min would require 60 seconds of full throttle so you will need 3 MJ just for the turbine

So if you put a 10 MJ battery it will help only in qualifying and no help in race

This is true, it wouldn't help over a race, it could help in small bursts of a lap or two. Furthermore, you always have the ability to use the H in generator mode, it's a very flexible device. Furthermore since the MGU-H is unlimited in it's power you could have a MGU that can harvest at 130-140kW but can maybe deploy at 180kW. The extra power could be useful in controlling boost curves at any desired rpm, potentially giving you more exhaust energy to recover in a repeating cycle.

[Tommy Cookers]

state of charge is misleading - do they actually use those words ?
the battery action is lossy
if you increase the state of charge by supplying 4 MJ you won't get 4 MJ out and get back to the original state of charge

presumably they expect to log current and voltage out ie 4 MJ out per lap to MU-K action is the limit
this might have needed an input of, say, 4.4 MJ
it's liquid-cooled for a reason