Bad bad comparison

[Carlos]

Ciro - The Autocoast Ti22 had some success and the designer went on to design the controversial Shadow CANAM cars with sucess. I'm learning things I didn't know.

"The 1969 Ti22 Mk 1 was the first American built car to lead a CANAM Race in 1970. Along with the 1970 Ti22 Mk2 they scored more points in the 1970 CANAM Series than any other American designed cars. Peter Bryant is also a pioneer in the use of Aerodynamic ground effects to enhance cornering. The chassis was largely titanium sheet and bulkheads with a patented attachment system. Suspension castings and links were primarily titanium.

In 1971/2, Peter Bryant designed the UOP Shadow Can-Am cars driven by Jackie Oliver and Carlos Pace in the Can-Am races.The Shadow Mk2 (1971) and the Shadow Mk3 (1972) . These 2 cars were the leading American designed sports to run in the Series in those years. Bryant designed cars scored more points in the CANAM than any other American designed cars including the legendary Chapparals. From 1966 to 1971 Chapparal scored 79 total points and in a shorter period from 1969 to 1972 Bryant designed cars scored 94 points total. The UOP Shadow cars were the first road racing cars to run on Unleaded gasoline and in 1971 Bryant was invited to give a paper about this to the SAE Millwaukee section. As a result he was invited to become a member of SAE and was subsequently made a member in 1973.
Following his retirement from professional racing in 1973, Peter Bryant wrote the first definitive Paper on racing car Aerodynamic Ground Effects and presented it to the AIAA at their second symposium on Automobile Aerodynamics in Los Angeles. (1973 “The CANAM Car and Ground Effects”)" Compiled from memory and several internet sources.

Ciro - It will not surprise you that you were correct about the engine configuration of the Porsche 917-30
Engine 912.52 180º V 12
Engine Location Mid , longitudinally mounted
Configuration magnesium alloy block, aluminum alloy head
Displacement 5.374 liter / 327.9 cu in
Bore / Stroke 90.0 mm (3.5 in) / 70.4 mm (2.8 in)
Compression ratio 6.5:1
Valvetrain 2 valves / cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed Bosch Fuel injection
Aspiration Twin Eberspacher turbos
Performance figures
Power 1100 bhp / 821 KW @ 7800 rpm *1500HP qualifying engine
Torque 1112 Nm / 820 ft lbs @ 6400 rpm
BHP/Liter 205 bhp / liter
Power to weight ratio 1.3 bhp / kg
Top Speed 386 km/h / 240 mph
0-60 mph Acceleration 2.1 s
0-100 mph Acceleration 3.9 s
Note: The Porsche 917 endurance prototypes were all flat 12 engines while all CANAM 917/30's turbo 12 cylinders were V12 engines.
From Internet Sources

I've been inside a few days. Not to worry, just a little congestion. It's relatively mild outside for a Canadian Fall day and very sunny. However - No Palm trees in sight, temperature cool, a hat and gloves are a good idea though.

[Belatti]

Wow! now I know in what was the "Speed Racer´s" cartoons based. 60´s and 70´s sports had exagerated powerful engines with weird looking chassis, and it´s pretty interesting just to watch the pictures.... so imagine how cool was actually seeing those monsters racing!

At least my stupid post made me learn something!

[Ciro Pabón]

Yes, you're right, Belatti, I would say that the body idea is similar to Le Mans series.

Mach 5 - Speed Racer's car

Chaparral 2


Now, if there were a way to mention Le Mans Group C series, which allegedly was put out by Max Mosley in person (in view of the fact that fanatics were moving from F1 to that kind of racing), then this great thread for which we thanks Belatti, would be perfect, from my point of view. I believe Champ Car follows this great tradition, not yet forgotten in F1: limit the fuel, open the rules. Ommmm....

Peugeot WM P83B. Reached over 400 km/h at Mulsanne.


Credits: image taken from http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1 ... 16-043.jpg, which for some reason cannot be directly linked.

[donskar]

I had the very good fortune to attend several Can Am races in the pre-917 era. Fantastic to see the great drivers of their time wrestling those beasts. Stewart, Amon, Surtees, Hulme, DOnahue and MANY others. Just try to imagine Surtees in the Chaparral "whale" car after Jim Hall held up a pit board that said simply "FASTER." It made the hair stand up on one's neck.

Pity that we never get to see today's F1 pilots racing anything else.

[m3_lover]

For Ciro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO2jcwgIi8o

[Ciro Pabón]

Konnichi wa. Sensei m3_lover, domo arigato Gozamaishite.

I guess you already know who's gonna have the number 5 this year on his car. Go, go, go.

Sayonara.

[dumrick]

Ciro - It will not surprise you that you were correct about the engine configuration of the Porsche 917-30
Engine 912.52 180º V 12

A "180º V-engine" is a flat one!

And Ciro - the WM that broke 400Km/h at Le Mans was the P88

[donskar]

"A "180º V-engine" is a flat one!"

Right. The CanAm Porsche was the flat 12 based on the 917 endurance racer. If you'll recall, Porsche V12s have not been singularly successful!

[Carlos]

Yes,180 degrees does not look like a V-hmmmm.To paraphrase 'Ole Blue Eyes; Frank Sinatra,'Mistakes,I've made a few'

[DaveKillens]

Here's some more pictures of the Shadow AVS. It was the wildest go-kart I have ever seen. Notice the front wheel air extractors, as well as the complete lack of driver protection.
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/997/ ... rolet.html

Personally, I've been to a few Can Am races at Mosport, the most notable was 1974 where there were some very sweet cars. Not only the Shadows and McLarens, but a Ferrari 512M and even a Porsche 908. The big block Chevy negines shook the ground, but that Ferrari was very loud music, shredding the air molecules and making everyone smile. And talk about team driver conflict, but having George Follmer and Jackie Oliver was bad news. It became such a bitter rivalry that blows were exchanged at times.

[Belatti]

Yeah! Those were racing cars!!!
A friend has got GT4 in PS2, there you can experience racing in the Nissan at 400KMH in LeMans or kick big engined cars asses with a light Lotus in the Nurburgring green hell!!!

[Belatti]

The COT is a totally new design, even though it's diffficult to distinguish the new from old. But externally, the COT differs in having a rear wing instead of spoiler, and the nose has a splitter plate instead of an air dam. Additionally, the driver's greenhouse is enlarged to afford more driver protection.
http://www.jayski.com/schemes/2006/COT.htm

I read an article about those aero differences in an Argentine magazine, there is a team here (very succesful in TC- Turismo Carretera) saying that it will build and run a NASCAR team, and that the proyect is achievable because with the COT budget will fall down as you will build only 2 or 3 cars instead of 12. Till 2007 teams had to build a specific car for each kind of track -superoval, ovals and circuits-.

With COT this wont be necessary.

Can someone explain why? Whats the difference in a Nascar chassis between Talladega and Watkins Glen, that a different chassis has to be built and you can´t change with setup. And why with COT you can race both tracks with the same car?

This makes me remember a thread about building 2 different F1 cars (long/short wheelbase) when we discussed about Ferrari/McLaren chassis design.

[F1RusH]

Remember this story?

After one installation lap today on the 11-turn, 2.238 mile Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, Toyota F1 driver Ricardo Zonta easily set a new track record on his second flying lap with at 1:07:587 at 119.206 mph. This time and speed edges the previous record of 1:07.722 set by Helio Castroneves at the CART Honda Grand Prix of Monterey in 2000.

Of course, that`s a mighty expensive 2/10ths of a second

We will see what happens with the new Panoz Champ Car this year when they return to Laguna after a few years of absence.

[Belatti]

Is this a joke?
A slow driver with a slow and unsetuped car in only 3 laps beated the fastest CART in its own territory.

There are no expensive 2/10ths of a second because there are no 2/10ths of a second. There was at least 7 seconds like Montreal proved.

I bet that with nowdays more restrictive F1 regulations Champs will be as fast as F1 in 2008. And that´s a thing that FIA should pay attention.

[Ciro Pabón]

It has to be a joke. Don't you people follow CART? I thought you did, based on your insider view of the series. Right now they are showing the races of the year at Speed, btw.

The current record holder is Sebastien Bourdais, at 1 minute, 5.880 seconds (unofficial), set on March 10, 2007. On a Panoz. As usual, all I can think of, in my timid, ponderated and moderated way is: mwhahahahaha!

Yes, I know that 2 seconds it's not enough, but, as Belatti says, wait until F1 cars get less aerodynamic force, standard ECU and a frozen engine for like 10 years. I'm guessing that in 3 years F1 cars will have trouble trying to break the SuperKart record at 1:23 and fractions. After all, at Seca there are not kerbs at the 9 curve, just a concrete barrier, and then you have the Corkscrew: that could explain the difference...

Eddie Lawson at turn 6 in his SuperKart... Faster than Troy Bliss (at 1:24 and something), record for bikes on a Ducatti, at Superbike championship,.


Just in case, for the few of you that does not know it, Laguna Seca is one of the few tracks you HAVE to lap in less than an alloted time to earn your superlicense, so there is plenty of data on it.

Some interesting times at this beautiful and ugly track (it reminds me of Ugly Betty, BTW. Yes, Ugly Betty. Do you mean you don't watch Ugly Betty? How unusual... )

F687/S, 888 HP, 1:07.984
F090/S, 725 HP 1:09.864
Toyota GT-One Road Car, maxxed at 1068 HP 1:09.744
Mini Cooper 1.3i, 61 HP, 2:05.836 (hey, more than 7 seconds of difference! )

To be fair, Zonta not only did not have too much time, he also ran into oil spots left by other classic and ancient cars before his attempt, or so he said.

On the other hand, "No other F1 driver has Zonta's experience at Laguna Seca and no one else (not even the ChampCar teams at spring training this year) has been given three days and a clear track to attempt a record. That, along with the fact that the current Toyota F1 car is signifigantly slower than the car that Zonta drove at Laguna Seca, makes one wonder how the new ChampCar would grid up at a 2007 F1 event...and don't kid yourself about the monetary aspect of open wheel or any other form of racing. It's all about the money. F1 cars use a much lighter, more complex, and therefore much more expensive carbon fibre than ChampCars. F1 cars rev to 19000 rpm, ChampCars limit revs to 12000 rpm to control wear and cut costs (utilizing less exotic metals and less costly manufacturing techniques than the old 17000 rpm CART motors required). ChampCars no longer utilize traction control. Normally, the teams used to employ an additional five or six full time engineers on t/c, whereas a leading F1 team still may have a huge staff working on it. The list goes on and on; testing, wind tunnels, staffing. There is definitely a correlation between money and speed in racing, which makes the ChampCar Panoz DP01's performance all the more remarkable."

Finally, Herbie, the world famous racing VW bug (you have seen Herbie, haven't you? ) posted a good time at Laguna Seca. I do not have the figures, but I bet Herbie is better than Ralph Schumacher.

Herbie passing a Ferrari at Laguna Seca. The time? Please, help me with figures...