2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

[Sonador]

Well that doesn't make any sense.

As I already said, Vettel was less than 2 secs behind Verstappen; if he'd undercut him he would have been ahead - which would have happened if he'd pitted same lap as Kimi (and the gap between made that possible) - simple as that.

I agree with you, he stayed out to long, and lost a lot of time.

Strategy calls of Ferrari are too agressive/desperate this year.
Last year they were great, so i wonder what happenend.

[zac510]

If people really think Ferrari's strategy is bad then you must be over-rating their car. It's well clear of 4th best but finishing the race where it belongs. Strategy can't fix a slow car.

[TwanV]

Anyone else looking forward to 2017? I'm kind of a bit fed up with 2016 now. The WCC was a complete formality this year with Ferrari and Red Bull seeming further away than ever. The WDC has been close, but only on paper, there hasn't been a huge amount of on track action between the top 2, and it all looks decided now.

Several drivers are looking a bit fed up. Vettel, Alonso, Button (now leaving) and even Hamilton are starting to look fed up with the sport.

Well to be honest last year was worse imo, except for if you favour Vettel/Hamilton. The drivers you are naming seem to be a little distracted sure, but all of them are also seeming to move backwards (except ALO), all are world champions if not multiple world champions (not much left to prove) and have enough money to burn.. If I were in their position I would have a hard time staying motivated as well.

[Yurasyk]

If people really think Ferrari's strategy is bad then you must be over-rating their car. It's well clear of 4th best but finishing the race where it belongs. Strategy can't fix a slow car.

In wich place it was slow? When was approaching to redbulls on two first stints? The last 20-laps stint of Vet on softs just was something insane and unexplainable.

[zac510]

If people really think Ferrari's strategy is bad then you must be over-rating their car. It's well clear of 4th best but finishing the race where it belongs. Strategy can't fix a slow car.

In wich place it was slow? When was approaching to redbulls on two first stints? The last 20-laps stint of Vet on softs just was something insane and unexplainable.

I'm thinking more about the whole season's results rather than just a single stint. The car can be fast over 1 or 10 laps but after 60-80 laps the true pace is shown.

[komninosm]

That's right...during braking!! I mean ok very nice defending from him but that last bit was awful...that's what led to Alonso taking off into the wall in Australia!

He made one blocking move to the inside but Lewis was fully behind of him.

You dont move in braking zones, period.

I´m hoping one of these guys just decide to not take evasive action and plows straight into him.
Seems to be the only way for him to learn. Everytime he moves in a braking zone, take him clean out.

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

[zac510]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

Nobody can - only the race stewards can.

[komninosm]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

Nobody can - only the race stewards can.

Race stewards are very fallible, what I asked for was an analysis of actual written rules and video footage.
You're welcome to butt in with actual logical attempts to answer my question in SectorOne's place, but if you're just going to use worthless aphorisms please stay out of it.
(my question is serious and matter-a-fact, I'm not trying to "trap" SectorOne or argue with him pedantically)

[SectorOne]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

With regards to moving under braking there's a gentleman's agreement among all drivers that you do not, under any circumstances move during the braking phase.

Verstappen just chooses to ignore it. But it will be interesting to see what happens in the future because Whiting and the race stewards have talked to him this time. Wonder why..

[TwanV]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

Nobody can - only the race stewards can.

Race stewards are very fallible, what I asked for was an analysis of actual written rules and video footage.
You're welcome to butt in with actual logical attempts to answer my question in SectorOne's place, but if you're just going to use worthless aphorisms please stay out of it.
(my question is serious and matter-a-fact, I'm not trying to "trap" SectorOne or argue with him pedantically)

Well, if the audio sync is right, Lewis actually changes sides in the braking zone first

Jokes aside, Max moves a (well ok, 10) milisecond later than Lewis. Again incredible reaction times from both. Let's turn it around for arguments sake: Is it fair/safe, being the overtaking driver, to wait with your move until the defending driver has no other option than to 1. open the door or 2.) move with you under braking?

[komninosm]

Was something wrong with Ham's car? Lap 41 he was 2.8 seconds behind Ves, and I'm finding it hard to believe in 12 laps with race mapping and championship on the line, he could not find a way around. Or is red bull now that fast? Nice work from Ves, close but nice. Good sportsmanship from Ham. =D>

I think the main problem was that Red Bull has better acceleration/traction out of slow corners and the final S before the DRS zone was really slow. So Hamilton could not stay close enough on the only part of the track were a pass was "possible".
Another problem might be that Hamilton used up a lot of his tires to close the gap on Verstappen.
One thing more is to look at their lap times:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/10/09/2 ... test-laps/
It does seem like Verstappen did not increase his speed in the last 10 laps.
He just went on driving the same or slower (than lap 43).
He was probably using up his battery/boost at all the overtaking places instead of the optimal places for best lap time. That and the wear on Hamilton's tires probably made it very hard to pass because of the way the Red Bull exited the final S before the DRS straight.
I think Hamilton's only chance was to bluff a pass attempt on the penultimate S, let Verstappen block him in breaking like he did in real race, but be prepared to swerve to the outside and clean air preemptively and go on the outside entering the S. Verstappen's turn would then be compromised on entry (inside line) and exit while Hamilton could compromise his entry on the outside line and keep close to the right curb for longer and then turn left with more distance to the left apex so he could accelerate faster and even be closer to Verstappen. This way he would be right behind him on the DRS straight and pass.

[i70q7m7ghw]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

With regards to moving under braking there's a gentleman's agreement among all drivers that you do not, under any circumstances move during the braking phase.

Verstappen just chooses to ignore it. But it will be interesting to see what happens in the future because Whiting and the race stewards have talked to him this time. Wonder why..

No that's incorrect, it's in the sporting regulations.

[komninosm]

I personally would punish Lewis for not driving normally on the track. U have no right to just drive on the escape road just because u want to. He had enough braking space and space to turn into the corner. Yes he would lose more time, but no matter what, track limits should be considered at every time as much as u can. He didnt put any effort into making that corner. And that is not acceptable for me. Aparently drivers became much too comfortable with cutting corners wherever they like doing it no matter what reason they have. Back in the day when F1 racing was still respected, bounderies were in place on corners where cutting could occur. But in modern time they drive all over the place and people even being happy for it, because they would be angry if the driver they are rooting for would retire from the race when making a mistake, or driving off the track....

This is an example of how ridiculous bias fanboyism and hate can get.
What kind of punishment do you have in mind? 5 seconds? 10? 100?

He already lost over a second by having to avoid Max's breaking swerve (not to mention a bit of tire blockage, so much for your theory of not trying). You do not penalize racers for losing time. You penalize them for driving outside track limits and gaining an advantage. Either in time or position. Your statement is so ludicrous (and the fact that another forum member kinda agreed with you) it is beyond redemption.
Putting astroturf or asphalt in more places instead of gravel is the best thing F1 has done. It helped with safety (less accidents or lighter impacts) and helped racing (and show) by allowing pilots to go closer to the edge (100%) without fearing that a single mistake will be disastrous. WIN-WIN

For stricter track limits you can always watch Monaco if you like that snooze-fest. (worst GP all year)
Though even that one has a runoff after the tunnel and the main straight...

[ChrisDanger]

https://streamable.com/zdqo
Can you prove moving like that under breaking is illegal by the actual written rules?

With regards to moving under braking there's a gentleman's agreement among all drivers that you do not, under any circumstances move during the braking phase.

Verstappen just chooses to ignore it. But it will be interesting to see what happens in the future because Whiting and the race stewards have talked to him this time. Wonder why..

They spoke to him last time. Worst they can do is bring out the black and white flag as a warning for his first offence, then disqualify him for a second offence. So it's like "it's okay if you do it, but only once per race". Except they can't even decide to be strict on that.

[Sonador]