2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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gruntguru wrote:Of course a rotary valve is needed for valve train durability and freedom of combustion chamber design.

The four stroke also wins on trapped mass and EGR but loses on supercharge available to two strokes via expansion chamber exhaust.

This software computes a sympatico tuned port/pipe combo: http://www.buildandclick.com/html/tuned_pipe.html
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Manolis may find this opposed piston HCCI 2T engine study-in-metal of interest, evaluating tuned exhaust design.

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Link to most recent BRP-Rotax production 2T high-efficiency snow-craft engine.. now with Fe composite piston/bore coating..
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/2016/ ... nside-look
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:Link to most recent BRP-Rotax production 2T high-efficiency snow-craft engine.. now with Fe composite piston/bore coating..
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/2016/ ... nside-look
Looks like it runs di *and* pfi. What strategy is used between the 2 systems?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Brian Coat wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:Link to most recent BRP-Rotax production 2T high-efficiency snow-craft engine.. now with Fe composite piston/bore coating..
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/2016/ ... nside-look
Looks like it runs di *and* pfi. What strategy is used between the 2 systems?

Appears that the aux TBI is akin to 'power-jet' in carb usage, - as a WOT enrichener.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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This paper examines basic 2T attribute advantages, & compares loop scavenge to uniflow port arrangements,
noting limitations of running poppet valves on gas flow via port-time-area, & mechanical losses/mass/complexity.

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/43662.pdf
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
99
Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
Brian Coat wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:Link to most recent BRP-Rotax production 2T high-efficiency snow-craft engine.. now with Fe composite piston/bore coating..
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/2016/ ... nside-look
Looks like it runs di *and* pfi. What strategy is used between the 2 systems?

Appears that the aux TBI is akin to 'power-jet' in carb usage, - as a WOT enrichener.
I saw in the press something like "think of it like the accelerator pump in the carb" but that certainly does not make sense and nor does using extra injectors just for WOT enrichment.

You could use it to make the DI injector smaller and give it more precise metering, leaving the PFI injectors to achieve the highest fuel flows, near maximum power.

The emissions would go out of the window but maybe they don't get tested there ...

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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I dont think so Brian, since the overall fuel consumption has not risen, & injected oil consumption has dropped by "40%".

More likely, it is as an anti-detonant injection method utilizing the latent heat ( absent in DI) , for hard running, at WOT.
( & that is something BMW did for its DI aero-engines, 70+ years ago, by injecting extra av-gas into the supercharger eye).
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello all.

In the following design (thank you J.A.W. for the interesting links), a buffer of clean air at the top of the transfer “pipe” through which the crankcase communicates with the transfer ports, reduces the unburned fuel in the exhaust of indirectly injected two-strokes.

Image

Undoubtedly it is an improvement (reduced emissions, improved fuel efficiency).

But, is it a solution?

From the closing of the transfer ports to the closing of the exhaust port there is plenty of time for the entered into the combustion chamber air-fuel mixture to escape unburned to the exhaust.
Things are worse.
The available time for the fresh mixture to be lost to the exhaust is longer.
With the reasonable assumption that the air-fuel mixture starts entering into the combustion chamber when the piston is at its BDC (till then only air is entering into, and is scavenging the, cylinder), the time available for the mixture to escape unburned to the exhaust is anything but short (typically, it corresponds to some 60 degrees of crank rotation).


Take now a look at the PatATeco 2-stroke engine design at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatATeco.htm


Here is a PatATeco design for, say, chainsaws (carburetor).

Image

Image

The scavenging is realized with air from the crankcase.

The transfer of the mixture happens after the closing of the exhaust, which means that the fuel cannot escape to the exhaust before participating in one, at least, combustion.



Here is an indirectly injected PatATeco (stereoscopic animation):

Image

Image

The injection resembles with the "oil jet cooling system" used in several four-stroke engines wherein: "a jet of pressurized engine oil is directed to the underside of the piston to help dissipate the extreme heat generated during sustained high rpm operation".



Here is an indirectly injected PatATeco having 4-stroke lubrication and external scavenging pump:

Image

Image


Thoughts?

Questions?

Objections?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:I dont think so Brian, since the overall fuel consumption has not risen, & injected oil consumption has dropped by "40%".

More likely, it is as an anti-detonant injection method utilizing the latent heat ( absent in DI) , for hard running, at WOT.
( & that is something BMW did for its DI aero-engines, 70+ years ago, by injecting extra av-gas into the supercharger eye).
Regardless of fuel/oil consumption, one of the key benefits of DI 2T is HC emissions and you'll lose some of that if you starting spraying PFI through the engine.

How does PFI give more charge cooling benefit than DI? In my experience DI gives better vol eff and better charge cooling.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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The TBI fuel, (unlike DI) must cycle through the crankcase, & by evaporating on the journey, cool it.
(Of course, it it is discrete fuel when injected, but may also assist with vaporization of the lubricant therein, too).

Kevin Cameron noted the effect here: http://www.cycleworld.com/another-path- ... ead-center

The powerful ECU obviously metes out accurately the required juice, on the determined parameters - to meet EPA rules.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Deleted duplicate post
Last edited by Brian Coat on 14 Oct 2016, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:The TBI fuel, (unlike DI) must cycle through the crankcase, & by evaporating on the journey, cool it.
(Of course, it it is discrete fuel when injected, but may also assist with vaporization of the lubricant therein, too).

Kevin Cameron noted the effect here: http://www.cycleworld.com/another-path- ... ead-center

The powerful ECU obviously metes out accurately the required juice, on the determined parameters - to meet EPA rules.
That's not right is it?

The PFI engine does cool the charge air but a lot of the cooling effect is 'wasted' on cooling the metal which the charge impinges upon as it wends its way to the combustion chamber (just as described in the article), whereas in DI the charge air is more cooled because the fuel is injected directly into the charge.

The powerful ECU you refer to can meter out the required amount of fuel but alas in the case of PFI, it can't prevent the juice from being pumped straight out of the exhaust pipe when the transfer and exhaust ports are open together. With the right injection timing, GDI can mitigate this effect, thus lowering HC emissions.

It looks like many of the snowmobile manufacturers have a similar 'dual fuel' solution and I'd be very surprised if it is not linked to emissions.

EDIT: It is linked to emissions and when I get time, I'll post what I learned.
Last edited by Brian Coat on 16 Oct 2016, 11:52, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote: .......More likely, it is as an anti-detonant injection method utilizing the latent heat ( absent in DI) , for hard running, at WOT.
( & that is something BMW did for its DI aero-engines, 70+ years ago, by injecting extra av-gas into the supercharger eye).
extra fuel upstream of the supercharger (like MW/ADI fluid) is a 'free' charge cooler......
reducing compression work (supercharger power consumption per massflow) and charge temperature (and engine temperature overall)
though when were BMW doing this without either MW or GM (nitrous) kits that anyway required more fuel ?
most of the numerous non-compound Wright R-3350s used ADI and fuelling upstream of the supercharger and had none of the compound's DI

the benefits are far less in an NA engine, as here today

the time element may act against DI, the fuel needs some 'charge preparation' time to evaporate enough for rapid and full combustion
so PFI may be necessary at the high rpm needed for full power

though PFI displaces charge by evaporation volume of fuel etc and DI (after valve closure) does not
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 14 Oct 2016, 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
J.A.W. wrote: .......More likely, it is as an anti-detonant injection method utilizing the latent heat ( absent in DI) , for hard running, at WOT.
( & that is something BMW did for its DI aero-engines, 70+ years ago, by injecting extra av-gas into the supercharger eye).
extra fuel upstream of the supercharger (like MW/ADI fluid) is a 'free' charge cooler......
reducing compression work (supercharger power consumption per massflow) and charge temperature

these benefits are far less in an NA engine

there is a time element against DI, the fuel needs some time to evaporate enough for rapid and full combustion - 'charge preparation' so PFI may be necessary at the high rpm needed for full power
Yes, charge preparation is more of a challenge in DI engines than in PFI and I expect they have to run the DI injection pretty advanced to avoid dumping fuel down the exhaust.

Do we know if they inject oil into the PFI fuel rail - would that help durability?