2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

[Vasconia]

The bad starts aren't limited to just Hamilton, Rosberg has had issues and both Mercs have often been jumped at the start. I personally don't feel there was anything wrong with the starts prior to the regulation changes. I do feel like we are being robbed of wheel-to-wheel action between the top guys though, I was looking forward to a straight fight in Japan, instead we got yet another recovery drive from one of the Mercs.

Hell no, it was all automatic, this is much better.

And people keep saying "we've been robbed of a race in Japan", sorry but we actually got a better race than what would happen had Nico and Lewis got out of the first lap 1st and 2nd.

Who cares if it's automatic? It's still a lifeless electronic paddle today. F1 is meant to be about wheel to wheel action, the start should be a formality, it shouldn't be such a large part of the outcome of the race, the racing should decide the result. I don't care who can feather a lifeless paddle on the steering wheel the best, but I do care who the best wheel to wheel racer is, and who can go quickest through the tight streets of Monaco.

The starts are an essential part of the races, and they have always been. You cannot destroy the true spirit of a start because a certain driver cannot learn how to use the car´s system.

[Phil]

This actually makes no sense. You are essentially saying you want to make things easier to show the skill of a driver when it should be the other way round. The clutches are not a lottery so can people stop saying that as Alonso has got great starts after great starts. Real skill!

Just to clarify my post;

Yes and no. Right now, the starts are an essential part of winning and not winning. In other words; the first 500m of a 300km race. That is 0.167% of the race. I don't mind the race starts being a matter of skill - not at all - but at the same time, I don't want the start to determine by a 99% chance the outcome of the race. We've had far too many starts influencing the race in a negative way this year, more so than last year, and the year before.

If we go back to the V8s - we had variations of starts as well, but even a bad start there didn't ruin the race to the degree it does now. Some did, many didn't. In those days, I didn't mind the variation we got and I didn't mind the variation in 2014 and 2015 either. For instance in 2014, a bad starting Mercedes still meant we got to see a race between the two because a relatively "bad start" only accounted for a single or two, maybe 3 positions lost. Even if a bad starts might account for a drop to right the back of the grid can be great for the race (just as a crash, a dnf can spice up the championship or an outcome of a singular race), but only if it's happens on an off chance and not on a regular basis.

Respect goes to Nico and his team for being the more constant performers this year. And he probably won't care how he wins the title (if he pulls it off), but I would have rather seen him win it in a straight fight (which it should have been) and not handed to him on a platter as many races this year have gone, when he simply took the lead and disappeared on the horizon while Hamilton got shunted off by Bottas in Bahrain, had to start from last because he ran out of engines in Belgium, had a botched start in Monza from pole, a race he should have dominated and in Japan, where we had a great race the two previous years, but were robbed because again a start dictated the outcome of the race. Then there is China where he was out in Q1 because of problems with his power unit (started last), same again in Russia but luckily the error only hit in Q3 but starting 10th, he was never in contention for the race win.

[Jolle]

This actually makes no sense. You are essentially saying you want to make things easier to show the skill of a driver when it should be the other way round. The clutches are not a lottery so can people stop saying that as Alonso has got great starts after great starts. Real skill!

Just to clarify my post;

Yes and no. Right now, the starts are an essential part of winning and not winning. In other words; the first 500m of a 300km race. That is 0.167% of the race. I don't mind the race starts being a matter of skill - not at all - but at the same time, I don't want the start to determine by a 99% chance the outcome of the race. We've had far too many starts influencing the race in a negative way this year, more so than last year, and the year before.

If we go back to the V8s - we had variations of starts as well, but even a bad start there didn't ruin the race to the degree it does now. Some did, many didn't. In those days, I didn't mind the variation we got and I didn't mind the variation in 2014 and 2015 either. For instance in 2014, a bad starting Mercedes still meant we got to see a race between the two because a relatively "bad start" only accounted for a single or two, maybe 3 positions lost. Even if a bad starts might account for a drop to right the back of the grid can be great for the race (just as a crash, a dnf can spice up the championship or an outcome of a singular race), but only if it's happens on an off chance and not on a regular basis.

Respect goes to Nico and his team for being the more constant performers this year. And he probably won't care how he wins the title (if he pulls it off), but I would have rather seen him win it in a straight fight (which it should have been) and not handed to him on a platter as many races this year have gone, when he simply took the lead and disappeared on the horizon while Hamilton got shunted off by Bottas in Bahrain, had to start from last because he ran out of engines in Belgium, had a botched start in Monza from pole, a race he should have dominated and in Japan, where we had a great race the two previous years, but were robbed because again a start dictated the outcome of the race. Then there is China where he was out in Q1 because of problems with his power unit (started last), same again in Russia but luckily the error only hit in Q3 but starting 10th, he was never in contention for the race win.

I don't think the V8's have anything to do with it.

It's a week point of otherwise mighty Mercedes. To me it looks like their clutch/first gear choice was excellent for the "automated" starts of last year, but doesn't work under current rules.

it's a mercedes design flaw, nothing more nothing less. They loose the race before the first corner.

[hollus]

Incidentally, in 2015 there were more teams with 1st gears that long, but all those except Mercedes chose shorter 1st gears in 2016.

[basti313]

This actually makes no sense. You are essentially saying you want to make things easier to show the skill of a driver when it should be the other way round. The clutches are not a lottery so can people stop saying that as Alonso has got great starts after great starts. Real skill!

Just to clarify my post;

Yes and no. Right now, the starts are an essential part of winning and not winning. In other words; the first 500m of a 300km race. That is 0.167% of the race. I don't mind the race starts being a matter of skill - not at all - but at the same time, I don't want the start to determine by a 99% chance the outcome of the race. We've had far too many starts influencing the race in a negative way this year, more so than last year, and the year before.

Usually 90% of the race shows now action, the front running cars just drive round the circuit without errors. This was and will be normal for F1 with the best drivers. Then 5% pit stop madness and 5% pushing in the 1sec range. So counting the start as only 0.167% of a 99% interesting race is simply wrong. The start is a big part of the small interesting part of the race for the win.

And it is nothing special, that the one who is botching the start will not win if there is similarly fast competition. This was always the case. Merc is in the exceptional situation, that the get still a podium with a botched start. This was not the case in former times.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

A lot of people think that, the start changes made by FIA have brought some spectacle to the show, more so because the dominant team has done a lackluster job of manufacturing racing quality clutches.

I think it would be a great spectacle, if all over again, the FIA should make the drivers stand in line, wait for the lights to go off and then run to the car, seat and belt themselves and then GO!!! I think that would be even better for the show as it also accounts for the DRIVER'S ABILITY to run, jump in the car, find the seat belts, put them on, start the car and then ride away. A lot of parameters to create excitement. That would be just awesome.

[basti313]

A lot of people think that, the start changes made by FIA have brought some spectacle to the show, more so because the dominant team has done a lackluster job of manufacturing racing quality clutches.

Well, I do not believe in a clutch issue at all. The margin for a good start is small due to the gearing, but the clutch is not different on other teams. And the last two bad starts were simply caused by a too fast released clutch pedal. This is a fault, which causes a bad start since 100 years...nothing new or changed.

[zac510]

... because it robbed us of an exciting race.

I think this idea that we spectators are robbed of an exciting race - and I'm not pointing this at you Phil because I've heard many other people say the same thing - but being robbed of an exciting race is the kind of problem that can never be solved. You'll always have a better race in your imagination than the actual race and hence you'll always be disappointed.

If the starts are 'repaired' then there'll be another thing like an engine failure, puncture, etc to rob you of the fantastic race in your imagination. Better for your sanity to accept the reality of the race as it is, or re-shift your expectation as the race unfolds.

(Buddhism for F1!)

[LionKing]

A lot of people think that, the start changes made by FIA have brought some spectacle to the show, more so because the dominant team has done a lackluster job of manufacturing racing quality clutches.

I don't think Hamilton's bad start in Japan was due to clutch, but due to too low revs. Rosberg started on pole and kept his lead to the first corner with the same clutch system.

[Pierce89]

This actually makes no sense. You are essentially saying you want to make things easier to show the skill of a driver when it should be the other way round. The clutches are not a lottery so can people stop saying that as Alonso has got great starts after great starts. Real skill!

Just to clarify my post;

Yes and no. Right now, the starts are an essential part of winning and not winning. In other words; the first 500m of a 300km race. That is 0.167% of the race. I don't mind the race starts being a matter of skill - not at all - but at the same time, I don't want the start to determine by a 99% chance the outcome of the race. We've had far too many starts influencing the race in a negative way this year, more so than last year, and the year before.

If we go back to the V8s - we had variations of starts as well, but even a bad start there didn't ruin the race to the degree it does now. Some did, many didn't. In those days, I didn't mind the variation we got and I didn't mind the variation in 2014 and 2015 either. For instance in 2014, a bad starting Mercedes still meant we got to see a race between the two because a relatively "bad start" only accounted for a single or two, maybe 3 positions lost. Even if a bad starts might account for a drop to right the back of the grid can be great for the race (just as a crash, a dnf can spice up the championship or an outcome of a singular race), but only if it's happens on an off chance and not on a regular basis.

Respect goes to Nico and his team for being the more constant performers this year. And he probably won't care how he wins the title (if he pulls it off), but I would have rather seen him win it in a straight fight (which it should have been) and not handed to him on a platter as many races this year have gone, when he simply took the lead and disappeared on the horizon while Hamilton got shunted off by Bottas in Bahrain, had to start from last because he ran out of engines in Belgium, had a botched start in Monza from pole, a race he should have dominated and in Japan, where we had a great race the two previous years, but were robbed because again a start dictated the outcome of the race. Then there is China where he was out in Q1 because of problems with his power unit (started last), same again in Russia but luckily the error only hit in Q3 but starting 10th, he was never in contention for the race win.

Not to an ass, but it sounds like your problem is more that Lewis is behind rather than clutches.

[Phil]

Not to an ass, but it sounds like your problem is more that Lewis is behind rather than clutches.

It's not the fact that he is behind that irks me... it's the how he ended up behind. I'll be fair, we were robbed of a great race all the same when Nico had a bad start and Lewis profited and disappeared in the distance. Ideally, I would want to see a great scrap between those two, race after race after race. Given how much ahead the Mercedes is relative to the other teams, we should have had all the great ingredients for a spectacular fight between these two. More races like Bahrain '14. Yet, this year, we haven't had a single one and a large part of that has been due to the starts [of the Mercedes] that happen to be quite erratic. Is it the 1st gear? Is it something related to the power delivery that is unique to the Mercedes? What part of it is due to temperature variations - something the Mercedes seems to be particularly vulnerable to (e.g. all the races where there were two formation laps and both Mercedes had terrible starts the last two years) or a combination of all of that? What ever it is; the starts have become a crucial part of the outcome of the race - to such a degree that the race was either won or lost within those crucial meters up to the first corner.

I may be a Lewis supporter, but foremost, I also want to have a great race. It's bad enough that one team is as dominant as they are (Mercedes), but that not even the two contenders in equal cars got to battle each other is the letdown point of this season in my opinion.

[Andres125sx]

The only way a bad start can be compensated is if that car is light years ahead of the rest. Is that what you want Phil? Bad starts have ruined driver chances since 1950, I´m not sure what are you complaining about here sincerely.


Amazing that some memebers continue complaining about clutches when it was Lewis fault and he even admitted it...

[SectorOne]

Incidentally, in 2015 there were more teams with 1st gears that long, but all those except Mercedes chose shorter 1st gears in 2016.

Now what could be the advantage for keeping a long first gear?
I´m not sure but isnt Monaco the only track they even use first gear on a lap?

[flynfrog]

I used to race Quad MX. We did a standing gate start. So all machines lined up in one row across the track. The gate drops and its a drag race to the first corner. It look like this


If you didn't get hole shot (first to the corner) the first corner looked something like this




Even if you made it through the first corner the tracks were on dirt with one racing line and pretty equal machines making it very hard to pass (sound familiar)



So we treated the start as the most important part of the race. We adjusted the porting (this is in the olden days before race engines had valves and sounded like tractors) the pipes and the gear ratios for the start of the race. Just because it was a small percentage of the race didn't mean it wasn't important.

These were peaky 2 strokes with multi plate clutches and stiff springs with light flywheels. Very easy to bog or spin the tires.


I ask the question if the few meters before the start are not important then are the few meters before the finish? What few meters of the race should count the most.

[PlatinumZealot]

A lot of people think that, the start changes made by FIA have brought some spectacle to the show, more so because the dominant team has done a lackluster job of manufacturing racing quality clutches.

I think it would be a great spectacle, if all over again, the FIA should make the drivers stand in line, wait for the lights to go off and then run to the car, seat and belt themselves and then GO!!! I think that would be even better for the show as it also accounts for the DRIVER'S ABILITY to run, jump in the car, find the seat belts, put them on, start the car and then ride away. A lot of parameters to create excitement. That would be just awesome.

Now that would be a sight! For saftey reasons you cannot arrange the cars on the grid in the same pattern as now, but say, parked sideways at the edge of the track so that you drive accross the track then turn towards the start finish line. Still higher chances of side impacts tho.