2016 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 21-23 October

[ClarkBT11]

Alonso was driving out of the track limits a lot, then he overtakes Sainz off track limits... Yes Alonso drove with passion but not within the rules.

Yee haaa! Alonso summed it up.. Overtook like a cowboy [/quote

So..... what do we want to see: passion or rules?

You meant the fact that Alonso gone out of track after completing the maneuver? That's up to debate, but in my view he completed the overtake (Sainz was behind him at that point) and then proceeded to go out of track, maybe because the tires were gone at that point or he didnt want to lock up, dont know.. But in Magnussen case, they were side by side and he go out of track before finishing the overtake manuveur. The only way that he could gain that position was by going outside track limits, unlike Alonso's case.

Alonso went too fast into the corner out braked himself and went of the track. If he stayed on the track and slowed his momentum Sainz would of repassed Alonso. I've just watched the Massa incident... Masa was at the apex and Alonso knocked him out the way. When I know I'm going to crash I brake... I'll have to take a leaf out of Alonso's book and plough through, it's not like it would be my fault an object in front of me I crash into

[Jester Maroc]

You meant the fact that Alonso gone out of track after completing the maneuver? That's up to debate, but in my view he completed the overtake (Sainz was behind him at that point) and then proceeded to go out of track, maybe because the tires were gone at that point or he didnt want to lock up, dont know.. But in Magnussen case, they were side by side and he go out of track before finishing the overtake manuveur. The only way that he could gain that position was by going outside track limits, unlike Alonso's case.

Alonso went too fast into the corner out braked himself and went of the track. If he stayed on the track and slowed his momentum Sainz would of repassed Alonso. I've just watched the Massa incident... Masa was at the apex and Alonso knocked him out the way. When I know I'm going to crash I brake... I'll have to take a leaf out of Alonso's book and plough through, it's not like it would be my fault an object in front of me I crash into

I agree with all of this. I am an Alonso fan but I cannot condone his driving antics in the last few laps. It was irresponsible and it hurt Massa and Williams badly.

Alonso's desperate radio message after the maneuver confirms that he was not confident in the legality of the move.

[jz11]

My personal take on that Alonso-Massa incident was that ALO saw Sainz lock up being waaay outside, so he gambled and stuck his nose in between apex and Massa expecting Massa to see him and take wider line leaving space on the inside, that would place them something like this on the exit:

Code: Select all

fwd direction ^ (next turn is right)
             Sainz

Alonso         Massa

that would have left him on the outside of the next right anyway, so I guess he was expecting for Sainz to mess something up for Massa to gain any benefit from this

and I also think that he saw the collision being inevitable when Massa steered into the apex and then chose not to slam on the brakes and to collide wheel to wheel - thinking that it would be the safest way to bump into him (most likely he would have lost front wing otherwise, high chance of puncturing Massas rear tyre, causing a safety car because of debris on the track)

So yes - Alonso was the cause of the collision, guilty of that, Massa should have seen him there, should have taken wider line and defended on the next right corner

in other words - this is racing, opportunistic move from Alonso, and clumsy from both Alonso and Massa

something we would not see if Alonso had anything to lose there championship wise

and I do not think that this compares any way to how certain German driver drove his teammate off the track few races ago, though, if to some it certainly must seem that way

[Big Mangalhit]

A safety car on last 3 laps would've been crazy. Vettel had new tyres and was lapping 3s faster than the front cars. DannyRic had the gap to go and fit new tyres without losing 3rd. Then Ros and Ham would be sitting ducks to both on the restart, with the fact that rosberg could lose more points than Ham. They could not risk going for tyres cause then DannyRic could stay out and then they would be the ones needing to OT on track which was not certain as well. It would've been madness.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Alonso went wide because he had to catch the rear of the car that was sliding due to the contact. Alonso was on the inside and Massa turned in, he should have left a cars width, not tried to close the door. Check the onboards, it's clear as day.

If the driver on the inside and ahead at the apex is at fault I don't know what's allowed anymore.

[ClarkBT11]

Alonso went wide because he had to catch the rear of the car that was sliding due to the contact. Alonso was on the inside and Massa turned in, he should have left a cars width, not tried to close the door. Check the onboards, it's clear as day.

If the driver on the inside and ahead at the apex is at fault I don't know what's allowed anymore.

Alonso was always going wide without the contact, look how shallow his line is on the corner before the contact was made. Alonso couldn't turn in that tight at the speed and line he was taking even if Masa had left more than a cars width contact was always going to be made.

[basti313]

Alonso went wide because he had to catch the rear of the car that was sliding due to the contact. Alonso was on the inside and Massa turned in, he should have left a cars width, not tried to close the door. Check the onboards, it's clear as day.

If the driver on the inside and ahead at the apex is at fault I don't know what's allowed anymore.

??? Alonso was on full steering lock, heavily understeering, missing the apex. He slightly opened the steering before the contact to correct the understeering. After the contact again full steering lock.
No idea where you can see any signs of catching the rear or sliding due to the contact.

There is no problem with discussing things on a biased base. But completely ignoring the reality is a bit strange.

[ChrisDanger]

Review of the USGP with Mercedes strategist.



And Brundle weighs in on the Alonso/Massa pass.

...the most contentious part of the race was Fernando Alonso bullying his way past his old team-mate Phil Massa. It was rather rude although cleverly wheel face to wheel face to avoid damage. But Alonso had been telegraphing such a move for some time and that's the kind of racing we want to see, even if the pass was completed on some imaginary part of the track as if playing a video game. With all their data and angles the stewards didn't apply a penalty which is how I would have voted. All the more reason as to why Rosberg's penalty back in Hockenheim when passing Verstappen should not have been applied.

[Fulcrum]

How many times we seen Hamilton ignore team advice to keep a gap, and instead attack and overtake his opponent. Verstappen showed the exact same attitude. Outcome was different, but that will hopefully change once RB decreases the gap to Mercedes.

Max has definitely polarized the F1 viewers. He has brought raw racing skills, bundled with raw aggression at an age where most kids would still be learning to hold steering. While some like to follow him for his racing skills, the others hate him for his raw aggression. At times he has performed at a level that of highly experienced drivers in races like Barcelona, Canada, Britain, Malaysia and Japan and at times he has been just at the level of his age in races like Monaco. His blocking in Hungary, Spa and Japan have been questionable, but he has explored areas that were just holy grails without any legal bounds.

From Red Bull's perspective, he has given them what they badly needed, the focus and attention back with his performances like mentioned above, that Kvyat couldn't have given them. From FIA/FOM's perspective, they have a driver who is attracting new audiences and heightening the viewer ship in many a countries, including from his own. While some of the current issues are due to inexperience, which would obviously iron out over time, without even being taught, but he is too good at the moment to be ignored for both of these entities.

Have we not seen how many times people sitting on the Pit wall and in strategy rooms make blunders, that are far bigger in nature than what Max did in COTA? Like ME4ME mentioned, how many times we have seen drivers ignoring the team's messages. "Multi21" for example. Why then only blame Max for losing it once in a while? I am sure Red Bull would want him to make all the errors now, rather than when they start to fight for the championship at a later season. They have nothing to lose and with the kind of commercial value they are milking, they would definitely be happy to have him the way he is.

On one hand people are bored to death with the kind of racing that F1 has become and when there is someone breaking certain unwritten rules and providing aggressive entertainment, they can't handle that either. Strange dilemma.

I agree with your comment.

The question I'd ask is, if Max were from the USA/China/India, what level of leniency would he be afforded from the FIA/FOM? The same, more, or less? An amount in correlation with his ability to expand the business and grow the audience?

[A-Bap]

How many times we seen Hamilton ignore team advice to keep a gap, and instead attack and overtake his opponent. Verstappen showed the exact same attitude. Outcome was different, but that will hopefully change once RB decreases the gap to Mercedes.

Max has definitely polarized the F1 viewers. He has brought raw racing skills, bundled with raw aggression at an age where most kids would still be learning to hold steering. While some like to follow him for his racing skills, the others hate him for his raw aggression. At times he has performed at a level that of highly experienced drivers in races like Barcelona, Canada, Britain, Malaysia and Japan and at times he has been just at the level of his age in races like Monaco. His blocking in Hungary, Spa and Japan have been questionable, but he has explored areas that were just holy grails without any legal bounds.

From Red Bull's perspective, he has given them what they badly needed, the focus and attention back with his performances like mentioned above, that Kvyat couldn't have given them. From FIA/FOM's perspective, they have a driver who is attracting new audiences and heightening the viewer ship in many a countries, including from his own. While some of the current issues are due to inexperience, which would obviously iron out over time, without even being taught, but he is too good at the moment to be ignored for both of these entities.

Have we not seen how many times people sitting on the Pit wall and in strategy rooms make blunders, that are far bigger in nature than what Max did in COTA? Like ME4ME mentioned, how many times we have seen drivers ignoring the team's messages. "Multi21" for example. Why then only blame Max for losing it once in a while? I am sure Red Bull would want him to make all the errors now, rather than when they start to fight for the championship at a later season. They have nothing to lose and with the kind of commercial value they are milking, they would definitely be happy to have him the way he is.

On one hand people are bored to death with the kind of racing that F1 has become and when there is someone breaking certain unwritten rules and providing aggressive entertainment, they can't handle that either. Strange dilemma.

I agree with your comment.

The question I'd ask is, if Max were from the USA/China/India, what level of leniency would he be afforded from the FIA/FOM? The same, more, or less? An amount in correlation with his ability to expand the business and grow the audience?

We should start by talking about driver talent, generally. In a Redbull or Merc, any driver on the field would be a consistent podium contender--at least. Max is good, but they're all good. OK. Perhaps Max is slightly better than the average. So is Cheko, so is Jensen and so on. My point: he's good but not all that special.

Let's also understand that his podiums can be largely credited to his (often questionable) defensive moves. Even though he likes to call it a "new style of driving," its really not. Any driver out there today can block and swerve under braking. They simply choose not to because if they did, everyone else would, and there would be chaos.

The other drivers and commentators tried to get this message across to Max, so they wouldn't have to rule on the matter. But he didn't listen, and now we have a rule. It is in this regard that he isn't mature. He's a cocky kid.

Let's see how he does going forward.

[Mandrake]

Alonso was driving out of the track limits a lot, then he overtakes Sainz off track limits... Yes Alonso drove with passion but not within the rules.

Yee haaa! Alonso summed it up.. Overtook like a cowboy

So..... what do we want to see: passion or rules?

You meant the fact that Alonso gone out of track after completing the maneuver? That's up to debate, but in my view he completed the overtake (Sainz was behind him at that point) and then proceeded to go out of track, maybe because the tires were gone at that point or he didnt want to lock up, dont know.. But in Magnussen case, they were side by side and he go out of track before finishing the overtake manuveur. The only way that he could gain that position was by going outside track limits, unlike Alonso's case.

I'm not sure I agree with the general consensus about passing maneuvers here.

Danny Ricciardo for example does very good overtaking moves without crowding out the other driver. In the two instances with Alonso this race it was just a massive divebomb. If every driver would assume Alonso's behaviour ("I was already aside him") then we won't end up with better races....There are many ways to put your car alongside.....

In the case of Alonso vs Sainz, the move wasn't completed. It's completed once you are past the other car AND have stayed on track.....Otherwise you only need to be in front for one little moment to then use any escape route you want to make the pass stick because "it was already completed".

The same goes for some of the Hamilton moves this and last season. If you are crowding the other car off the track, that's not a clean pass and should not be hailed. It's just a dirty pass. And there are some people very good at dirty passing, VES the latest addition to that pack....

[BanMeToo]

Alonso went wide because he had to catch the rear of the car that was sliding due to the contact. Alonso was on the inside and Massa turned in, he should have left a cars width, not tried to close the door. Check the onboards, it's clear as day.

If the driver on the inside and ahead at the apex is at fault I don't know what's allowed anymore.

??? Alonso was on full steering lock, heavily understeering, missing the apex. He slightly opened the steering before the contact to correct the understeering. After the contact again full steering lock.
No idea where you can see any signs of catching the rear or sliding due to the contact.

There is no problem with discussing things on a biased base. But completely ignoring the reality is a bit strange.

Agreed.

[langwadt]

Alonso went wide because he had to catch the rear of the car that was sliding due to the contact. Alonso was on the inside and Massa turned in, he should have left a cars width, not tried to close the door. Check the onboards, it's clear as day.

If the driver on the inside and ahead at the apex is at fault I don't know what's allowed anymore.

with in reason, being ahead at the apex is easy enough, just stay off the brakes, but you are supposed to be able to make the turn too

[Edax]

It is amazing how FIA is trying to hype Vestappen like crazy.... Verstappen driver of the day after ignoring his team comunications, ruining his own tires, and entering pit-lane without preventing his own team???

When FIA don´t even bother to hide their agenda...

FIA had nothing to do with it. It was simply a prank from a popular dutch F1 reporter.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Official FIA driver of the day is based on online fan votes. So automatically Vertappen will win all the votes even if he crashes out on Lap 2. If Max crashes out before lap Lap 2, there might just be a tiny chance that F1 will take his name off the poll, and the Max fans won't bother to vote or vote for another driver.