2021 Engine thread

[Pierce89]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

+1

I would just limit fuel for the race otherwise qualy is going to be lots of cars sitting in garages

Otherwise, FIA to supply up to 100kg of pump fuel for each car for each race.
Limit size of cars to a box
Mandatory safety requirements
Minimum driver and seat weight.

Then a Balance of performance to ensure one team isn't miles ahead and to allow manufacturers to bring their own tech. I.e. maybe Renault want a small turbo engine and Ferrari want loads of cylinders, balance it out at the end so that they can both be competitive.

As much as I hate BOP I would rather have a strong healthy grid full of cars with plenty of differentiation .

Maybe Formula one isn't for you then. GT3 has tried BOP with different engine sizes and it doesn't work. Some cars are much better then others. Even with similar specs and regulations many categories still have significantly varied performance from the best team to the worst.

Even in Formula 1 between the 4 Mercedes teams you have the fastest car on the grid and the slowest car on the grid using the same engine.

Where did you get the idea that gt3 BoP doesn't work? Gt3 grids are tighter than spec open wheel series. SRO and gt3 have taken the concept of BoP to a new level and made it work awesomely.

[Facts Only]

Lol okay.

The best racing is between very different cars that set similar lap times. My understanding of f1 is about being as fast as possible over a lap and pushing technological boundaries.

Modern f1 is strangled by over regulation with all of the clone cars designed by the fia. If "that" is what f1 is about then it's certainly not for me.

So what you want to do is remove all the rules that make the cars similar in performance and then replace them with some different rules that make them similar in performance... brilliant.

BoP rules are completely against the nature of F1... "This car has been designed better so lets hobble it so its slower"

In GT3/Touring Car it works because they are road cars first and not predomnently designed for racing so the BoP rules are used to smooth out the inherant differences from the original road cars.

If you use BoP in F1 it might as well become a spec series (GP1 if you will).

And if there was BoP in F1 can you imagine the moaning, complaing and bitching we would hear from Ferrari and Red Bull everytime they didnt win!

[mrluke]

Lol okay.

The best racing is between very different cars that set similar lap times. My understanding of f1 is about being as fast as possible over a lap and pushing technological boundaries.

Modern f1 is strangled by over regulation with all of the clone cars designed by the fia. If "that" is what f1 is about then it's certainly not for me.

So what you want to do is remove all the rules that make the cars similar in performance and then replace them with some different rules that make them similar in performance... brilliant.

BoP rules are completely against the nature of F1... "This car has been designed better so lets hobble it so its slower"

In GT3/Touring Car it works because they are road cars first and not predomnently designed for racing so the BoP rules are used to smooth out the inherant differences from the original road cars.

If you use BoP in F1 it might as well become a spec series (GP1 if you will).

And if there was BoP in F1 can you imagine the moaning, complaing and bitching we would hear from Ferrari and Red Bull everytime they didnt win!

Pretty much yes.

Im looking more at LMP1 than GT3 for inspiration here.

We seem to be agreed that the rule book is there to make all the cars similar in performance, therefore the argument of whether the performance should be balanced or not is moot. Is there a better way we can achieve the same result? I would say yes.

The rule book achieves BOP by designing the teams cars for them, making all the cars look and perform essentially the same. It also means we end up with some pretty ugly ducklings and it ensures that the team with the biggest budget wins, there is no opportunity here for thinking outside of the box, if you are out of the box you are illegal. All of the time comes in the last bit of refinement of the design, well pass the point of diminishing returns.

I would like to see F1 return to have 3 or 4 different engine sizes and layouts all on the same grid with it being possible for a team to win with any of those layouts. I would like to let the teams design their own cars. I would like to see innovation being encouraged as opposed to refinement.

Sure BOP is always going to be contentious and deciding how exactly it is done is always going to be difficult but it already happens. When a team is winning "too much" we start getting mid season rule "clarifications" aimed to slow them down. Lets just be honest about what we are doing and what we are trying to achieve.

[carisi2k]

+1

I would just limit fuel for the race otherwise qualy is going to be lots of cars sitting in garages

Otherwise, FIA to supply up to 100kg of pump fuel for each car for each race.
Limit size of cars to a box
Mandatory safety requirements
Minimum driver and seat weight.

Then a Balance of performance to ensure one team isn't miles ahead and to allow manufacturers to bring their own tech. I.e. maybe Renault want a small turbo engine and Ferrari want loads of cylinders, balance it out at the end so that they can both be competitive.

As much as I hate BOP I would rather have a strong healthy grid full of cars with plenty of differentiation .

Maybe Formula one isn't for you then. GT3 has tried BOP with different engine sizes and it doesn't work. Some cars are much better then others. Even with similar specs and regulations many categories still have significantly varied performance from the best team to the worst.

Even in Formula 1 between the 4 Mercedes teams you have the fastest car on the grid and the slowest car on the grid using the same engine.

Where did you get the idea that gt3 BoP doesn't work? Gt3 grids are tighter than spec open wheel series. SRO and gt3 have taken the concept of BoP to a new level and made it work awesomely.

Because I have seen many Gt3 races here in Australia, including the 12 hour and each year there is always 1 or 2 cars that are significantly faster then the others. I have been to the bathurst 12 hour at the start with the number one drivers at the wheel and watched Van Gisbergen in his McLaren take off at 3 seconds a lap over other v8supercar drivers and European aces from DTM, Blacpain and LMS in an Audi R8, Bentley, Ferrari 458, Merc SLS or Nissan GTR. These are drivers that are at the top of the game and the disparity in performance of the cars is astounding.

Then in the Aus GT championship the gap between 1st and last is suprisingly large with 7 or 8 seconds separation in qualifying. The only way that they make the races close in Australia is the stupid compulsory time pitstop where the fast guys get penalised for being fast.

[Pierce89]

You're just seeing the difference between teams and drivers. The vast majority of gt3 series are very close with all the manufacturers roughly the same over a season. Of course performance varies circuit to circuit simply because the base cars are so different from one another that it leads to many different cars producing similar lap times but in totally different ways.

[Cold Fussion]

BOP is the antithesis of what F1 is and should be about. Motorsport is the only sport in the world where people are onboard (and frankly seem to get angry when it isn't) with the idea that if you're successful you should be handicapped; and even more bizarrely, people would be totally ok with the drivers being in the same car and one guy winning by 30 seconds every race. Imagine if in 2010, FIFA decided that Messi could only play for 10 minutes max in order to normalise Barcelona; it's such a ridiculous notion I can't believe people really want anything like that in an event masquerading as a competition. BOP in GT3 feels more like a cartel between the marketing departments of the manufacturers rather than a real competition.

[gruntguru]

Still don't know why F1 didn't go with stratified fuel injection.

They did. TJI is an extreme form of stratification. Also there is no evidence that the direct injection is not used to stratify the charge in the main chamber. I suggest you read the last 300 pages in the "Formula 1 1.6LV6 turbo engine formula" thread. http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=4&t=9259

nah, they're effectively Jet/Diesel firing now.. and that's the down side to it all.. Much lower RPM.. meaning lesser noise, and at the end of the torque curve far to quickly

Jet ignition is nothing like diesel - more like a "super-spark-ignition".

The "Torque Curve" is pretty much dictated by the "fuel delivery curve" which is specified in the regulations.

[ENGINE TUNER]

BOP is the antithesis of what F1 is and should be about. Motorsport is the only sport in the world where people are onboard (and frankly seem to get angry when it isn't) with the idea that if you're successful you should be handicapped; and even more bizarrely, people would be totally ok with the drivers being in the same car and one guy winning by 30 seconds every race. Imagine if in 2010, FIFA decided that Messi could only play for 10 minutes max in order to normalise Barcelona; it's such a ridiculous notion I can't believe people really want anything like that in an event masquerading as a competition. BOP in GT3 feels more like a cartel between the marketing departments of the manufacturers rather than a real competition.

Absolutely correct, as I've always said BOP is the devil, and it should not be allowed in WEC either and absolutely not in F1.

[ENGINE TUNER]

My take on what the 2021 PU rules should be

1.6L Turbo I4 (because every major car maker on the planet makes one)
unlimited energy recovery(all wheels)
no batteries allowed, only electromechanical system allowed(williams fly wheel and the like) and only 2 allowed per season
laser ignition allowed(or any type the manufacturers want)
any type of valve train allowed
water injection allowed(yes including the coolant fluid)
no refueling
no race max fuel allotment
75kg/hr max fuel rate

CVT allowed(yes I know)

thoughts?

[mrluke]

My take on what the 2021 PU rules should be

1.6L Turbo I4 (because every major car maker on the planet makes one)
unlimited energy recovery(all wheels)
no batteries allowed, only electromechanical system allowed(williams fly wheel and the like) and only 2 allowed per season
laser ignition allowed(or any type the manufacturers want)
any type of valve train allowed
water injection allowed(yes including the coolant fluid)
no refueling
no race max fuel allotment
75kg/hr max fuel rate

CVT allowed(yes I know)

thoughts?

Why limit all of the teams to a single layout and aspiration?
You can't have no batteries - besides what are you trying to achieve?
Why 75kg/hr? Seems pretty arbitrary and again, what are you trying to achieve? It clearly isn't road relevance because you want to ban batteries.

[Alonsofor2017]

why not go all out for a few years, whats the worst that could happen

v12 with twin turbo and unlimited energy recovery

exotic materials and exotic fuels allowed

1 engine for every 2/3 races

no engine penaltys

2 short races to allow for lighter fuel tanks

[ENGINE TUNER]

Why limit all of the teams to a single layout and aspiration?
You can't have no batteries - besides what are you trying to achieve?
Why 75kg/hr? Seems pretty arbitrary and again, what are you trying to achieve? It clearly isn't road relevance because you want to ban batteries.

A single layout(the I4) that EVERY MAJOR manufacturer produces, a single layout(I4) which would be the best solution, it was the original layout chosen for the 2014 regs until Ferrari chose to use their veto to force the V6 layout which is heavier, more expensive and less efficient than an I4. The I4 was considered the best solution in the original turbo era, and if all layouts were allowed the I4 is what they would all converge upon(unless maybe the I3 would be a better solution). That is why the I4. Turbo because it is also the best and most efficient solution, but if they want some other type of forced induction that would be allowed.

The previous hybrid Porsche WEC entries prior to 2016 did not use batteries, it used an electromechanical flywheel that Williams F1 produced. This flywheel was capable of being used over several seasons with 1 unit. It is non-toxic and non flammable, and much more efficient than batteries(and lighter as well). Power density is also higher I believe.

Let FE develop the batteries, F1 should be road relevant to hyper performance sports cars(if anything) and FE to city cars, the world wants both.

75kg/hr because the best way to encourage efficiency in all areas is to limit fuel, and 75kg/hr seems an appropriate way to control speeds for the current tracks.

[ENGINE TUNER]

why not go all out for a few years, whats the worst that could happen

v12 with twin turbo and unlimited energy recovery

exotic materials and exotic fuels allowed

1 engine for every 2/3 races

no engine penaltys

2 short races to allow for lighter fuel tanks

I4turbo will always beat a V12T if the same displacement or same fuel

exotic is just another way to say highly toxic.

2 short races is not F1, it is not a Grand Prix

[rscsr]

Why limit all of the teams to a single layout and aspiration?
You can't have no batteries - besides what are you trying to achieve?
Why 75kg/hr? Seems pretty arbitrary and again, what are you trying to achieve? It clearly isn't road relevance because you want to ban batteries.

....
The previous hybrid Porsche WEC entries prior to 2016 did not use batteries, it used an electromechanical flywheel that Williams F1 produced. This flywheel was capable of being used over several seasons with 1 unit. It is non-toxic and non flammable, and much more efficient than batteries(and lighter as well). Power density is also higher I believe.
...

No they didn't. Audi ran the Williams flywheel, but they switched to batteries due to weight, power density and capacity.
Porsche always used batteries. Toyota used to run super caps. But for this season everyone of them chose batteries.

[dobbster71]

For me F1 engines should not be bound by any requirement for "road relevance" - Touring car / WRC racing takes care of that.
Electric motors would be outlawed - Formula E takes care of that.
Engines should only need to last for 1 race weekend.

My 2021 engine rules would be as follows:
Fuel tank capacity - 250kg;
Fuel - Petrol;
Engine size - Any up to 2000cc;
No rev limit;
No minimum weight;
No fuel flow limit;
Engine layout - Any layout would be acceptable (rotary anyone?);
N/A, Turbo charging, Super charging are all acceptable forms of induction;
Any material can be used (ceramic, magnesium, exotic alien meteor alloy!);
Mechanical energy recovery systems would be allowed.

Basically, the only limiting factor would be the max. engine size & fuel tank capacity.