multi composite chassis

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fastback33
fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

multi composite chassis

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meaning a chassis made from carbon fiber and aluminum, or any other multi composite frame.

I know this is kind of a freshman question for most on here, but i don't understand how this process works. Take aluminum honeycome wrapped in carbon fiber. How does this work? Do they cook it in an autoclave? and what would the benefits be over just a straight carbon fiber chassis?

Any help is always appreciated, pictures help as well!! (actually pictures of the process or of something like a sectional view owuld be awesome!)

ReubenG
ReubenG
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Joined: 21 Apr 2004, 15:31

Re: multi composite chassis

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Honeycomb (either aluminium, paper or plastic) is used as lightweight filler material. If you bond faceplates to the honeycomb (more aluminium or fibre reinforced plastic) the structure becomes very stiff - because the faceplates are off-set from the centre-line (neutral axis) of the panel they add tremendous stiffness to the structure. It's the same principle as the webs on an I-beam or channel section - if you are an engineering student then go read up on the parallel axis theorem with reference to second moment of area of a structural section.

Aluminium honeycomb has a very useful secondary structural benefit - if something impacts on the outer skin of the chassis, the honeycomb begins to progressively buckle and compact. The honeycomb acts like millions of tiny crumple zones - a bit of a simplification but the mechanism of energy absorption is the same. The major benefit is that the inner skin does not deflect very far - this is very important for maintaining the integrity of the passenger safety cell.

Most high performance carbon fibre composites are baked in an autoclave - the high pressures and temperatures ensure proper bonding of the laminates.

I haven't seen many photos of cross-sections of composite/ honeycomb constructions - one of my colleagues works with honeycomb so I'll ask if she's got any decent pics.

Scarbs' page (http://scarbsf1.com/) has some pics and some more explanation.

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: multi composite chassis

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I wonder, what would happen if you make the honeycomb from cf too :?: Pros, cons anyone?

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: multi composite chassis

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"I wonder, what would happen if you make the honeycomb from cf too"

The two typical honeycomb core materials are aluminum and Nomex aramid. Foam core is also used in low cost applications. CF would not be a good honeycomb core material since it does not have the good compressive properties required. And it is also quite expensive.

Anywhere a fastener goes through a cored panel, a solid insert must be used to prevent the fastener clamp-up loads from collapsing the core.

As ReubenG noted, the purpose of honeycomb is to separate, and thus stiffen, the composite skin panel. A pure composite fiber laminate skin would be very light and strong, except that it would be prone to buckling.

If aluminum honeycomb is used with graphite (carbon) fiber laminate, they must be separated with an intermediate layer of fiber glass, to prevent a galvanic interaction between the two materials.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

FW 21
FW 21
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007, 13:20

Re: multi composite chassis

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fastback33 wrote:meaning a chassis made from carbon fiber and aluminum, or any other multi composite frame.

I know this is kind of a freshman question for most on here, but i don't understand how this process works. Take aluminum honeycome wrapped in carbon fiber. How does this work? Do they cook it in an autoclave? and what would the benefits be over just a straight carbon fiber chassis?

Any help is always appreciated, pictures help as well!! (actually pictures of the process or of something like a sectional view owuld be awesome!)

Here are some low quality pics of a chassis cross section from a 2004 F1 car.

Hope it helps.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... C00680.jpg

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... C00678.jpg

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/ ... C00677.jpg

fastback33
fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

Re: multi composite chassis

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EHh, yes on being en engineering student but am still at the calculus physics, stage for a another quarter. Would any of this bein a physics book?

Btw thank you for the explanations!!!

fastback33
fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

Re: multi composite chassis

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One more question i thought of later today. If having the aluminum honeycome makes the chassis stiffer, how come we don't see this in F1 or LMP?? Is it too expensive??(although i find that hard to believe for f1)

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: multi composite chassis

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Everyone in the both mentioned series uses it :wink:

fastback33
fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

Re: multi composite chassis

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D'oh :x

:lol:

What teams? All of them?

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: multi composite chassis

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Everyone in f1, not sure about LeMans but I think it´s the same there too... Both classes are one of the top so the cost isnt a big problem :wink:

ReubenG
ReubenG
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Joined: 21 Apr 2004, 15:31

Re: multi composite chassis

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@ Fastback : Parallel axis theorem and all the 2nd moment of area topics are generally covered in the first solid mechanics / structural mechanics course for engineering students. Your 1st yr physics text might alude to it but I doubt it will go into any detail.

Re: Making honeycomb out of carbon fibre : honeycombs are produced by an expansion method - sheets of the parent material have Adhesive applied in thin strips and then stacked together. After the bond has formed, the end sheets are pulled and the sheets bend and expand into a honeycomb geometry - it's almost like a concertina in reverse. You can achieve the same result yourself with a glue stick and some thickish paper.

I don't think it would be possible to make a honeycomb out of CF - hardened CF has almost no plastic strain before it fractures so one couldn't use the expansion technique on already cured CFRP. Making a mould for a honeycomb layup would just be outrageously expensive.

2. The core in any sandwich structure requires good compressive and shear strength - CFRP is very strong in tension but less so in compression or shear. IF you orient the fibres in the core perpendicular to the lamina, they would have to be very short, which reduces the strength benefits from using CF. I would think that a CFRP honeycomb would tend to debond internally and buckle in an Euler fashion rather than the progressive buckle of an aluminium honeycomb, so you lose that benefit as well.

speedrcr
speedrcr
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Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 21:58
Location: Greensboro

Re: multi composite chassis

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1.) Parallel axis is typically used for larger scale structures. For solid and honeycomb laminates, we typically use classic lamination theory, which includes some very important coupling terms.

2.) The only place I have seen carbon honeycomb is in very high temperature applications. If I remember correctly, they start with a "standard" honeycomb and then place them in a high temperature, carbon rich oven. When the part comes out you are left with a carbon/carbon honeycomb. And yes, it is VERY brittle. I'll take a look around and see if we have any pieces lying around. (http://www.ultracorinc.com/ccarbon/ccarbon_body.html)

3.) Most of the sandwich panel failures I have seen were due to buckling. The problem with sandwich panel buckling is that it is notoriously difficult to accurately predict. There are a multitude of failure mechanisms, which need to be analyzed. Face sheet wrinkling, disbonding, core crushing, crippling, ect ect. There are several NASA/NACA, DOT, and FAA reference papers out there, unfortunately they are only accurate for flat panels, with balanced laminates, under compression.(exaggerated) How actual sandwich structures fail is somewhat of a trial and error sort of progression.
That being said, if you have unlimited resources, an office full of PhD's, and a ton of money, I would look at creating a micro-mechanical model of the laminate in question. There are a few new programs out here which show some promise (GENOA is one) but the industry rumor is that in order to get this analysis to work, you have to do so much material/subcomponent testing, that you might as well have built and tested the real thing :)

Erik

fastback33
fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

Re: multi composite chassis

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Hmm, I always htought that carbon fiber chassis, were just complete carbon fiber. i knew that aluminum honeycomb was used, but never thought that it was so widely used. So then the cost of an aluminum honeycomb/cf chassis is greater then say an all cf one? And how do they bond the honeycomb to the cf?

Is this what it looks like that t hey use?

http://www.burnhamcomposites.com/aluminum-honeycomb.htm

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: multi composite chassis

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I think it´s without the top & bottom sides, you can see the pattern clearly
http://waterocket.explorer.free.fr/imag ... comb_2.jpg

FW 21
FW 21
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007, 13:20

Re: multi composite chassis

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tomislavp4 wrote:I think it´s without the top & bottom sides, you can see the pattern clearly
http://waterocket.explorer.free.fr/imag ... comb_2.jpg

You are correct, although the thickness used is usually 12, 10 or 8mm thick (depending on the area of the chassis.

For example 12mm on the sides and 10 or 8mm on the floor and 10mm on the top.