The 2016 F1 WDC Title Dumpster Topic

[basti313]

You are right. And the big problem now: Wolff will sack Ham for the first three races according to media and will put Wehrlein into the car to have another German winning.
Bye bye WDC 2017

Any references for that?

You want to say, that Wolff will not do anything to favor Nico?

If they do that, Hamilton will just walk away from F1. If they have him contractually to prevent that, then he'll just drive it around slowly and make them look silly.

I thought Lewis a racing driver and not Justin Bieber on wheels. Why should he not try to win the rest of the races? Do you think he is Justin?

[Mandrake]

At least he likes to hang out with him a lot. Maybe some of the traits are being transferred to HAM?

I think we can close this topic now. We have factually proved that all F1 Champions are underserving champions because they either drove dirty, it was only the car or they profited from HAM having technical issues. Furthermore, in order to overcome the natural selection process of HAM becoming the "Always WDC", teams start to sabotage HAM to stop his world dominance.

My only fear is that if they push it too far, HAM will walk away from the sport and will start an election campaign for US presidency.

[Phil]

I think the major issue is that Mercedes has shown a clear willingness to "manage" their drivers during the race. On one hand, they have maintained that they want to let their drivers race, but at the same time have also limited the ability of their drivers to drive to the maximum potential of their ability by controlling certain aspects within their control, like strategy or to step in with clear team-orders.

Given the position Mercedes have been in and how dominant their car was/is - I think they (Toto) have managed the situation quite well. They have won 3 WDCs and 3 WCCs in a row - and arguably in the best possible way with 2 going to Hamilton and 1 now to Rosberg. They now have 2 world champions, arguably, both extremely motivated going into 2017 than if LH had walked away with his 4th leaving a demoralized Nico behind.

The only problem I see, is that if a team is that willing to control certain aspects of the race, they also open themselves up to scrutiny where people rightly question the legitimacy of the results. Was the WDC race influenced beyond favoritism? Was one driver handicapped in order to help the other? Was it right to step in on the last race and ask one driver to give up his WDC ambition of a 4th title in order to protect the teams Nth 1-2 result?

Hamilton at the end of the race said in the Channel 4 interview; "What was I supposed to do? Just hand it to him? ... try to help myself, because no one else would". Maybe it shows a bit the state of which the team is - or more importantly, how Lewis feels where he stands with the team. That in the end, it was him not only against Nico, but against the team as well.

Now bearing that in mind, I personally prefer the outcome that Lewis lost the championship like that, than winning it on the grounds of pushing Nico back into traffic. It would have unquestionably put a dent in how a championship is won and it would not have been a nice feeling. On the other hand, I maintain that Nico Rosberg should have tried harder: Instead of getting on the radio and asking for the teams assistance ("I can drive faster, he is pushing me into traffic" or something to that effect), I would have wished for a more "Champion's approach"; E.g. more aggressive driving, attempting to pass or at least some form of creating pressure on the track to force Hamilton either to speed up or to create an overtaking opportunity for himself.

He had literally nothing to lose.

Crash with Lewis; the championship is his. Even if Hamilton walks away with less damage, pitting again would have resulted in finishing below 3rd and the championship going to Nico. So I would have applauded more effort from Nico. And while I to some degree agree that passing would have been difficult, I would have appreciated seeing an effort being made. Had the position been reversed, I have absolutely no doubt that LH would have been all over the back of Nico's car creating pressure, as he so often was in 2014 and 2015 and 2016.

At the end of the day, Mercedes got what they wanted. I'm sure some might argue that they have no interest in who becomes champion, as long as it's one of their drivers - but by the same token, how can a team so obsessed about managing their drivers, image and in the sport in order to pave the way to strengthen their brand as a whole not be also invested in who in their team becomes champion? And I'm not talking about the team as a whole, but the higher ups, the management. There is of course a limit to how much they can influence the outcome - and sometimes the chips fall where they fall, but they also have a nice setup (i.e. a singular strategist) and to some degree a power in where they allocate which staff.

The explanation by Toto between a cliff forming between the two sides of their garages forming sounds reasonable and perhaps that is all there is; but after one car suffered so many faults this year vs the other that had none (of those issues), one does wonder to what degree that switch in staff had any impact at all.

[Manoah2u]

And it was not like nobody saw this coming. This outcome was very probable after Japan; I am also perplexed with the amount of controversy this generates.

For the record, to the people who believe Mercedes conspired with Rosberg: What do you think it means for Mercedes when a PU blows up? That's not exactly good marketing. Plus 1,500 workers can say goodbye to a bonus.

Every decision Mercedes made that did not benefit Hamilton, was made solely to benefit the team, just as every decision made that did not benefit Rosberg, was made solely to benefit the team.

I'm not saying they did, but circumstantial evidence is strong that at very many points this year, they purposely helped Rosberg.

You are right. And the big problem now: Wolff will sack Ham for the first three races according to media and will put Wehrlein into the car to have another German winning.
Bye bye WDC 2017

3 races ?!!! seriously?
Please source it, if that's true then Lewis is out for sure and off to Ferrari asap.

It would explain Wehrlein's 'hold' on his drive for 2017 AND why he isn't positioned @ Force India.
Lewis testing 2017 tires today however doesn't really fit the image though.

[Manoah2u]

if it does happen, the internet will blow up!

[turbof1]

Spoilers: might contain traces of sarcasm.

[WaikeCU]

Breaking up the harmony with Lewis' mechanics which indirectly affected reliability.

Just to put down my thought on this. I don't think the swap of mechanics affected the reliability of Lewis. In fact, they were the same mechanics in 2014 who were with Lewis when he suffered a host of reliability issues in 2014. What I believe is, those mechanics and most importantly the Chief Mechanic knew subtle details of Lewis' settings that might not be all in data, which probably went to Nico. Remember, in the beginning of the year Toto said, they did it because the garages were increasingly split and some data was not being shared.

On Lewis' part, he feels that he had worked closely with these mechanics for 3 years (2013-15) and they had formed a close knitted group that would understand his needs better, rather than having a group of mechanics, especially Chief Mechanic who starts from ground zero to understand his needs. Because Nico was anyway losing, it didn't mattered to him of having new set of mechanics, while Lewis felt let down, because he stood to lose the most of that swap. Once again, I don't think it was related to reliability.

The matter of new set of mechanics is crucial imo. How long has Nico been with the team? Since 2010. I could image him already know all of the crew in a span of 6 years? I think that is a massive difference. It's not just a new set of mechanics. That's probably the case for Lewis, but not for Nico, because he might already have work experience with his new set of mechanics in the past when Michael and Ross were stilll around. So for me, Nico benefits from that earlier on the season and throughout the season as well.

[i70q7m7ghw]

So Hamilton lost by 5 points, and he lost 7 points alone due to a poor start in Australia. There were other poor starts, and that error in qualifying in Azerbaijan, so it wasn't ALL down to mechanical failures. We could say without those mechanical failures, perhaps he would have won the WDC. Equally we can also say without driver errors, he would also have won the WDC, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other really.

Ah yes, the starts. That's where he lost all of his points. Of course. No points lost when the super-reliable engine died when easily leading in Sepang. No points lost by ERS failures that ruined/prevented qualifying. No points lost by the team putting the wrong engine map in at Baku prior to qualifying (which then had to be run in the race).

No, no points list other than in a few race starts. All down to the starts, yes.

Did you not read the rest of my post? My point was, YES he lost points due to failures, but he also lost points due to starts and other errors. If you take any one of those races where he lost points one way or another, he could have been WDC. It wasn't ALL down to technical failures, driver errors played a part too.

[i70q7m7ghw]

My take is that Nico is undeserving, as he won by luck not by merit.

2016 WDC
ROS - 385
HAM - 380

2015 WDC
HAM - 380
ROS - 322

[Mandrake]

2016 WDC
ROS - 385
HAM - 380

2015 WDC
HAM - 380
ROS - 322

Best facts brought up in this discussion. Thanks Diesel.

With regards to bad starts vs mechanical damage: Hamilton needs to be more than thankful he sits in the megacar the Mercedes is. Before the Turbo aera if you failed to convert your Pole position into the lead immediately, chances were extremely thin that you end up 2nd in the order after being 8th to 10th after the start. Also in Spa when the Ferraris erased themselves from the equation it helped HAM massively to not be seriously impacted by the last position on the grid.

Had the Merc not been THAT dominant, the bad starts would have done waaayyyyyyy more damage than the 25 Points lost in Malaysia.

[Sonador]

My take is that Nico is undeserving, as he won by luck not by merit.

I will admit having been a high level athlete (runner) at one point in my life, that I and a lot of other people I know hold ourselves to a higher standard than a win is a win. Wining and beating a top competitor, was not the same as winning and running a crappy time, or beating an opponent I out classed, or beating a top competitor who was compromised because of injury or some other reason.

With that reasoning, then Lewis did not deserve the 08 title.
He had les victory's than Massa did, so he was Lucky that massa DNF'd 2 more times than Hamilton did.
He was a deserving champion back then i thought.

Hamilton is smart by undermining this championship by saying certain things.
He already has 2017 in mind.

Luck is just another factor in winning a championship.
It does not mean that somebdy does not deserve a said title.

Hamilton put Rosberg under tremendous strain/pressure on the racetrack, but also within the team and via media..
He held his own under al of that, including a crazy Verstappen!

Be excited because Hamilton wil be back with a point to proof
I think we will see an even more focussed Hamilton now!

[TAG]

With regards to bad starts vs mechanical damage: Hamilton needs to be more than thankful he sits in the megacar the Mercedes is. Before the Turbo aera if you failed to convert your Pole position into the lead immediately, chances were extremely thin that you end up 2nd in the order after being 8th to 10th after the start. Also in Spa when the Ferraris erased themselves from the equation it helped HAM massively to not be seriously impacted by the last position on the grid.

Had the Merc not been THAT dominant, the bad starts would have done waaayyyyyyy more damage than the 25 Points lost in Malaysia.

What's your point the same goes for Rosberg, he was lucke to have the car when being spun and having to come back from the rear of the pack. He had bad starts that he was able to overcome and pick up points on as well. 2 more bad starts for Lewis, okay. He was worse than Rosberg there, but two bad starts does not equal the four mechanical issues suffered by Hamilton to Rosberg's zero. No matter how much one hates Hamilton, it's a false equivalency. Sure had he not screwed up one of these, perhaps he would have won, but asking the guy to be flawless in his driving to overcome mechanical s issues is a bit hypocritical if you ask me, considering his teammate had an embarrassment of a year in the driving department and was gifted (literally) four victories because he ran unopposed.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

With regards to bad starts vs mechanical damage: Hamilton needs to be more than thankful he sits in the megacar the Mercedes is. Before the Turbo aera if you failed to convert your Pole position into the lead immediately, chances were extremely thin that you end up 2nd in the order after being 8th to 10th after the start. Also in Spa when the Ferraris erased themselves from the equation it helped HAM massively to not be seriously impacted by the last position on the grid.

Had the Merc not been THAT dominant, the bad starts would have done waaayyyyyyy more damage than the 25 Points lost in Malaysia.

Absolutely. Now imagine the the same old "Before the Turbo aera", you would have seen 3 to 4 cars between Lewis and Nico in a number of races where Lewis qualified ahead of Nico by over 3 tenths and in some races, over half a second. That would have completely eliminated Nico taking advantage of Lewis' bad starts. An old era where the difference between pole and second guy was a tenth or so. Correct?

2013
Race - Driver 1 (pos) - time - Driver 2 (pos) - time
Aus - Lewis (3) - 1:28.087 - Nico (6) - 1:28.523
Mal - Lewis (4) - 1:51.699 - Nico (6) - 1:52.519
Chi - Lewis (1) - 1:34.484 - Nico (4) - 1:34.861
Bah - Nico (1) - 1:32.330 - Lewis (4) - 1:32.718
Spn - Nico (1) - 1:20.718 - Lewis (2) - 1:20.972
Mon - Nico (1) - 1:13.876 - Lewis (2) - 1:13.967
Can - Lewis (2) - 1:25.512 - Nico (4) - 1:26.008
Bri - Lewis (1) - 1:29.607 - Nico (2) - 1:30.059
Ger - Lewis (1) - 1:29.398 - Nico (11) - 1:30.326

(This is interesting - In Q2 where Nico couldn't make it to Q3, his time was 1:30.326 and Lewis was 1:30.152 and between them, there were 4 cars within 2 tenths)

Hun - Lewis (1) - 1:19.388 - Nico (4) - 1:19.720
Spa - Lewis (1) - 2:01.012 - Nico (4) - 2:02.251

[Just_a_fan]

My only fear is that if they push it too far, HAM will walk away from the sport and will start an election campaign for US presidency.

Even Hamilton knows you have to be born in the US to be President...

[dans79]

My only fear is that if they push it too far, HAM will walk away from the sport and will start an election campaign for US presidency.

Even Hamilton knows you have to be born in the US to be President...

And some people wonder why I think this forum has become a shell of it's former self, and why only a few members are worthy of debating with.