2016 Grand Prix of Abu Dhabi - Yas Marina, 25-27 November

[Andres125sx]

Someone like Alonso's greatness as the best driver on the grid of this generation, would pale away over the next decade. Some time later, he would be remembered as a driver who won 2 Championships. Nothing more, nothing less. On the same breath, history would remember Vettel as a four time champion.

Who´s history?

I don´t remember Giles as an average driver who didn´t manage to win a title despite driving a Ferrari

I don´t remember Jaques Villeneuve as a great driver because he won a title

I don´t remember Michael Schumacher as the best of all time because he owns the title record

And so on...


Surely casual fans will make such relationships, but I´d like to think people who really follow F1 know better than that

You are entitled to have your own opinion and perspective of things and world will have it's own. What I mentioned is what I think it is.

You say what you think it is, I say what I think it is.

What a surprise!

[Andres125sx]

I only know that some people who saw Fangio still maintain that he is the best in F1 history.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact he won WDCs with Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Ferrari and Maserati.

When any driver win with different teams, that always increase his reputation, guess why? Exactly, because then you can be sure he´s a great driver instead of a lucky driver who drove best car

That´s F1, it is a team sport and only casual fans or fanboys make a relationship WDC winner = best driver on the grid

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Who´s history?

I don´t remember Giles as an average driver who didn´t manage to win a title despite driving a Ferrari

I don´t remember Jaques Villeneuve as a great driver because he won a title

I don´t remember Michael Schumacher as the best of all time because he owns the title record

And so on...


Surely casual fans will make such relationships, but I´d like to think people who really follow F1 know better than that

You are entitled to have your own opinion and perspective of things and world will have it's own. What I mentioned is what I think it is.

You say what you think it is, I say what I think it is.

What a surprise!

I answered your question... "Who's history?"
You obviously don't want to believe the stats because those are not appealing your senses (could it be because Alonso's stats aren't that great? I think so and you can think otherwise) and you find ways to reject believing in them. That doesn't change how history is made. Every competition has a framework to assess the best efforts put forward by the participants and stats are undeniable truth of that framework.

Besides, I don't understand where on earth did Giles put a show worth enough to consider him a great? 26 Retirements out of 66 races and 5 wins in a career?

[Just_a_fan]

When any driver win with different teams, that always increase his reputation, guess why? Exactly, because then you can be sure he´s a great driver instead of a lucky driver who drove best car

Hmmm. Fangio won titles with more than one team so he's a great driver. Schumacher did likewise. And Prost. They're also great presumably?

Vettel hasn't. Neither has Alonso. Nor Senna, Clark or Stewart. They must all be rubbish then?

Hamilton has won with more than one team so presumably fits in the first category of "great". Or doesn't the rule apply to him?

Without wishing to diminish Fangio's reputation (as if an internet posting could do so), he was well known for ensuring he had the best car. That's the reason he swapped teams so often. He chased the best car without loyalty for the teams. He made sure he had the best car and then did his bit to win in it.

[Just_a_fan]

This is not tennis where only your preparation and talent counts, In tennis the player leading ATP ranking really is the best in the world, as on most sports

Hmmm, I think you'll find that the player tends only to succeed when they get the right coach. They are a partnership and although the player is the star, it's the coach that releases the inherent talent. Likewise an F1 team. A good driver will stand out in an average car but even a great only wins in a decent car.

Remember that F1 drivers have a long history of race results before they get to F1 (barring two or three obvious exceptions). The decent drivers are obvious long before they arrive in "The Circus". Some of those drivers won't make it to F1 for financial reasons but generally the cream rises.

[Just_a_fan]

I only know that some people who saw Fangio still maintain that he is the best in F1 history.

The world was always better back then when you ask an old timer.

You can't compare the 1950s F1 with today (or even with the 80s and 90s). Fangio is held in high regard because he was so much more successful than the competition. He ensured he had the best car which always helps but drives like the 'Ring chase, go down in history for good reason.

[Just_a_fan]

Why?
If they would have put Haryanto and Ocon into the Merc this year, they would have given us the epic battle for the WDC we saw. And if you would stick Ham and Ros into the Manor, they would have fought against the great ones of all time like Palmer or Nasr.
The stats is much too much biased by the car.

You could have put other drivers in Schumacher's Ferraris and Vettel's RBRs and they would have won. So what. The game requires you show enough ability and speed to be offered the best cars. That's why Hamilton and Rosberg are in the Mercedes rather than Haryanto and Ocon.

I'm finding it hugely funny to watch the anti-Hamilton brigade try to show he's no good and only succeeds because of the car. By doing so they just push every other successful driver under the wheels too. There are no great drivers because everyone wins titles in the best cars. No one ever won in a bad car. You might get the odd race win by chance but that's it.

I don't know why you hate Hamilton and I don't really care. If you don't like him, that's fine, but to try to diminish his results just makes you look a bit silly really. He can be an annoying, arrogant twat at times but I can't think of any F1 champion in the last 40 years who wasn't.

[basti313]

Why?
If they would have put Haryanto and Ocon into the Merc this year, they would have given us the epic battle for the WDC we saw. And if you would stick Ham and Ros into the Manor, they would have fought against the great ones of all time like Palmer or Nasr.
The stats is much too much biased by the car.

You could have put other drivers in Schumacher's Ferraris and Vettel's RBRs and they would have won. So what. The game requires you show enough ability and speed to be offered the best cars. That's why Hamilton and Rosberg are in the Mercedes rather than Haryanto and Ocon.

That is what the stats are telling?

I'm finding it hugely funny to watch the anti-Hamilton brigade try to show he's no good and only succeeds because of the car.

How can anyone say he is not good? Did I? The point is, that the points or the number of wins or whatever is not telling anything with sort of dominance.
Do you think Ham is a bad driver...you tend to be rather sensitive?

By doing so they just push every other successful driver under the wheels too. There are no great drivers because everyone wins titles in the best cars. No one ever won in a bad car. You might get the odd race win by chance but that's it.

Well, at least some had competition like Ham in his McLaren years or in his first Merc year. This is when drivers show how good they are. Not in the years when they are driving in front with a dominant car producing hyper stats. The same counts, of course, for the rest of the field.

I don't know why you hate Hamilton and I don't really care. If you don't like him, that's fine, but to try to diminish his results just makes you look a bit silly really.

I do not hate, I do not care. I am talking about stats.

He can be an annoying, arrogant twat at times but I can't think of any F1 champion in the last 40 years who wasn't.

I think he is the same weirdo kid like most of the field. Unfortunately F1 lost with Button and Webber two of the last normal persons. At the moment it looks like the only ones on the field, who I would not call an ass and with whom I could immagine sitting together and drinking some beer are Hulk and Ric.

[Andres125sx]

I answered your question... "Who's history?"
You obviously don't want to believe the stats because those are not appealing your senses (could it be because Alonso's stats aren't that great? I think so and you can think otherwise) and you find ways to reject believing in them.

Sorry sir, but if you disagree with me is fine, but please do not try to picture me as a fanboy who don´t think stats are that important because my favourite driver does not have impressive stats.

Alonso have some impressive stats btw but that does not change my point of view, in F1 stats are not that important when compared to other sports, wich is NOT the same as saying stats are useless as you seem to think I said

[Andres125sx]

When any driver win with different teams, that always increase his reputation, guess why? Exactly, because then you can be sure he´s a great driver instead of a lucky driver who drove best car

Hmmm. Fangio won titles with more than one team so he's a great driver. Schumacher did likewise. And Prost. They're also great presumably?

Vettel hasn't. Neither has Alonso. Nor Senna, Clark or Stewart. They must all be rubbish then?

Hamilton has won with more than one team so presumably fits in the first category of "great". Or doesn't the rule apply to him?

Without wishing to diminish Fangio's reputation (as if an internet posting could do so), he was well known for ensuring he had the best car. That's the reason he swapped teams so often. He chased the best car without loyalty for the teams. He made sure he had the best car and then did his bit to win in it.

Where did I say only the champions who won in different cars are greats? If they win with different cars that increases his reputation, that´s a fact. But that does not mean you need to win on different cars to be considered a great

Things are not black or white, they usually are grey

[Goran2812]

Why?
If they would have put Haryanto and Ocon into the Merc this year, they would have given us the epic battle for the WDC we saw. And if you would stick Ham and Ros into the Manor, they would have fought against the great ones of all time like Palmer or Nasr.
The stats is much too much biased by the car.

You could have put other drivers in Schumacher's Ferraris and Vettel's RBRs and they would have won. So what. The game requires you show enough ability and speed to be offered the best cars. That's why Hamilton and Rosberg are in the Mercedes rather than Haryanto and Ocon.

I'm finding it hugely funny to watch the anti-Hamilton brigade try to show he's no good and only succeeds because of the car. By doing so they just push every other successful driver under the wheels too. There are no great drivers because everyone wins titles in the best cars. No one ever won in a bad car. You might get the odd race win by chance but that's it.

I don't know why you hate Hamilton and I don't really care. If you don't like him, that's fine, but to try to diminish his results just makes you look a bit silly really. He can be an annoying, arrogant twat at times but I can't think of any F1 champion in the last 40 years who wasn't.

The thing is that usually the Hamilton brigade undermine other drivers and call them rubish and no good and praise Hamilton to the skies like a God of F1... I believe that he is one of the best, he has certanly been in the right place at the right time and has bagged many wins, poles, bumped up the stats, but having little to no respect for other drivers and what they have achieved and not acknowledging their success is just calling for someone to write back s*** on Hamilton...

[TAG]

We've got a dumpster thread going here, why continue to loiter all over this thread?

[Edax]

This is not tennis where only your preparation and talent counts, In tennis the player leading ATP ranking really is the best in the world, as on most sports

Hmmm, I think you'll find that the player tends only to succeed when they get the right coach. They are a partnership and although the player is the star, it's the coach that releases the inherent talent. Likewise an F1 team. A good driver will stand out in an average car but even a great only wins in a decent car.

Remember that F1 drivers have a long history of race results before they get to F1 (barring two or three obvious exceptions). The decent drivers are obvious long before they arrive in "The Circus". Some of those drivers won't make it to F1 for financial reasons but generally the cream rises.

I think the best drivers are also the ones which are able to steer the development team. One of the turning points for RB this year is said to be VES giving the team direction in how to develop the car. something they were missing with WEB leaving.

It amazes me to see the level of technical detail of the input some of the drivers are able to provide. Earlier in the thread someone said that anyone could win in Schumachers ferrari. Truth is, a few have tried, and found it hardly drivable since it was completely build to schumachers specifications and style.

I guess a drivers ass is more worth than most of the sensorics on the car. And I guess the exceptional drivers also have exceptional asses. (Though admittedly some of them are just exceptional asses.)

[Just_a_fan]

We've got a dumpster thread going here, why continue to loiter all over this thread?

Chill! School's out and the teachers are away!




I reckon the mods are having a sit down in a dark room recovering from the season and haven't attacked this thread yet...

[iotar__]

We've got a dumpster thread going here, why continue to loiter all over this thread?

Chill! School's out and the teachers are away!
I reckon the mods are having a sit down in a dark room recovering from the season and haven't attacked this thread yet...

Yes, this thread used to be of a high quality with theories about German conspiracies that used team orders in Abu Dhabi to prevent Hamilton winning another championship. He remarkably won previous two despite not being a German. No one can keep up with such a high level.

- Track limits again: have you seen what Alonso did in Abu Dhabi? Didn't even bother and overtook Williams off track - and no he wasn't avoiding anything. Used it to carry the speed and get in front as opposed to slowing down and trying to squeeze next to (no chance to stay ahead that way of course)
- Remarkably Red Bull didn't ask for clarification nor harder rules this time. Reason: they didn't need it to drag one of their drivers into positive spotlight or rather drag out of negative one like in Mexico.