Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[NL_Fer]

Not really, they need pure horsepower in qualifing. But they need efficiency in the race, extract as much power as possible from 100kg of fuel.

I cannot say there is much difference between Q and Race, in other words they lack both.

Honda (and Renault) have done great this year.

But i still don't understand they got it so wrong in 2015. We already knew in 2014 Ferrari got it wrong with their small compressor and could not regenerate enough energy with the mgu-h. Honda had the same problem in '15

[RedNEO]

Last time I checked, all drivers want to win. Chassis engineers need driver's input/feedback to do their job. PU engineers do not need driver's input to do our job.

After 2015 I thought you would be a little bit more humble but nope! Still walking around with a chip on your shoulder.

[Roostfactor]

Obviously some people here have more insight to the "real" personalities of drivers than others. It doesnt matter as this bickering has steered this topic of course.
Can we get back to the inteded topic of this thread please?

[godlameroso]

Last time I checked, all drivers want to win. Chassis engineers need driver's input/feedback to do their job. PU engineers do not need driver's input to do our job.

After 2015 I thought you would be a little bit more humble but nope! Still walking around with a chip on your shoulder.

Talk is cheap from your position. If you had the responsibility of tuning one of these power units, you'd just look at it for months without so much as 1 constructive action.

Honda has designed, manufactured, and refined their power unit in 2 years, along with all the electrical systems, with an arm tied behind their back from the token system.

I just ask that you have a little perspective before succumbing to strong sentiments.

[Wazari]

Wazari

Alonso says Mclaren Honda had 100hp less than Sauber this year.


http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/12/16/fo ... 03916.html

First off I would like to with everyone a Happy Holiday season.
Mr. GoranF1, why are you directing this statement at me? Are you asking for confirmation? Mr. Alonso is entitled to his opinion and we all know he has never exaggerated or embellished anything in the past. nor has he ever insulted McLaren or Honda.

Mr. Wazari

Alonso is telling the truth. Honda was trying to be futuristic, different god knows what and the truth is 2+ seconds gap comes 80-90% from terrible Honda PU.
Car isnt perfect but engine sucks.
I am sure that affected Honda road car sell atleast a bit.

Honda has all the money in the world and yet in F1 they didnt do anything since 1992.

I hope thing change in 2017 and Honda finnaly does a decent PU.

Mr. Goran,

What do you really know about the facts? How do you know 80-90% of the deficiency is from the PU? I have tried to be polite to you and answer your PM's demanding information. Hardly a hello, please or thank you. We are a prideful and competitive group of guys and girls at HRD. No one, NO ONE, is a harsher critic of Honda than us. And after all this you come out and say Honda sucks.

Here's a point to ponder for you. I have noticed that many race commentators say, "Look how XXXX passes McLaren on the straight because of lack of HP. Is that what you're basing your 80-90% figure from? Did you compare the exit speeds of the different cars heading into the straights? We have. Did you examine the throttle position of the car 10 meter, 25 meters, 40 meters after entering the straight because 100% throttle position could not be achieved sooner due to lack of mechanical grip compared to others? We have. So again, I ask, 80 to 90% of the deficiency is because of the PU? I can tell you what my opinion is of the percentage based on race telemetry data but it's obvious you would never believe me.

As far as Mr. Alonso and the comments I have made, if I offended anyone, I apologize. I was not bashing him IMO but just stating the observations I have personally witnessed. Maybe some of you know him better than I. My dealings with him have only been behind closed door meetings.

Yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder. We are a group of people who work extremely hard to put together the best PU possible. We don't want to be last. We don't work 16 to 18 hour days, 22 days straight to settle for mediocrity. It infuriates me to see Mercedes have a better car. But we are trying. When someone says, "Honda sucks," yes I do take it personally. Maybe I'm getting grumpy in my old age and my patience isn't what it used to be. I know I'm starting to lose my filters.

I come to this forum for entertainment and as a break from my tedious tasks of the day. Maybe I should take my daughter's advice. Although she is 35 years my junior, she is wiser than me in many ways. She always tells me, "Dad, when it's not fun anymore you should quit." Maybe I should follow her advice about this forum. This time, I think I should really listen to her.

[Joseki]

Hasegawa said in an interview that they underestimated how much Mercedes' ability to improve during the winter and they expected to be closer to the front after the winter testing. I'm pretty amazed Honda made the same mistake two years in a row, hopefully they'll aim really high this winter.

Also Mr. Wazari, while for sure I'm not as wise as you or your daughter, I'm just an undergratuate in philosophy after all, I'd suggest you and anyone else here to not take things wrote on the internet as something personal: we are all here 'cause we like Formula 1 and motorsport in general, someone even work in the sport, and as humans sometimes we are ruled by passions instead of reason. We all want Honda to produce the best PU, McLaren to design the best car to give Fernando and Stoffel a winning car, it's not happening and we are all unhappy. As you can clearly see on the McLaren/MP4-32 topic it's not just Honda that makes all of us pretty irritating (and I'm sorry for that everyone ).

[hemichromis]

A little disappointed by some people on this forum, the behaviour is poor.
What is the intention? To get Wazari to prove himself by revealing information that would compromise Honda or his relationship with them?

It's bad enough you do this on the forum, if you are also pressuring him by PM it really is too much.

[GoranF1]

First off I would like to with everyone a Happy Holiday season.
Mr. GoranF1, why are you directing this statement at me? Are you asking for confirmation? Mr. Alonso is entitled to his opinion and we all know he has never exaggerated or embellished anything in the past. nor has he ever insulted McLaren or Honda.

Mr. Wazari

Alonso is telling the truth. Honda was trying to be futuristic, different god knows what and the truth is 2+ seconds gap comes 80-90% from terrible Honda PU.
Car isnt perfect but engine sucks.
I am sure that affected Honda road car sell atleast a bit.

Honda has all the money in the world and yet in F1 they didnt do anything since 1992.

I hope thing change in 2017 and Honda finnaly does a decent PU.

Mr. Goran,

What do you really know about the facts? How do you know 80-90% of the deficiency is from the PU? I have tried to be polite to you and answer your PM's demanding information. Hardly a hello, please or thank you. We are a prideful and competitive group of guys and girls at HRD. No one, NO ONE, is a harsher critic of Honda than us. And after all this you come out and say Honda sucks.

Here's a point to ponder for you. I have noticed that many race commentators say, "Look how XXXX passes McLaren on the straight because of lack of HP. Is that what you're basing your 80-90% figure from? Did you compare the exit speeds of the different cars heading into the straights? We have. Did you examine the throttle position of the car 10 meter, 25 meters, 40 meters after entering the straight because 100% throttle position could not be achieved sooner due to lack of mechanical grip compared to others? We have. So again, I ask, 80 to 90% of the deficiency is because of the PU? I can tell you what my opinion is of the percentage based on race telemetry data but it's obvious you would never believe me.

As far as Mr. Alonso and the comments I have made, if I offended anyone, I apologize. I was not bashing him IMO but just stating the observations I have personally witnessed. Maybe some of you know him better than I. My dealings with him have only been behind closed door meetings.

Yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder. We are a group of people who work extremely hard to put together the best PU possible. We don't want to be last. We don't work 16 to 18 hour days, 22 days straight to settle for mediocrity. It infuriates me to see Mercedes have a better car. But we are trying. When someone says, "Honda sucks," yes I do take it personally. Maybe I'm getting grumpy in my old age and my patience isn't what it used to be. I know I'm starting to lose my filters.

I come to this forum for entertainment and as a break from my tedious tasks of the day. Maybe I should take my daughter's advice. Although she is 35 years my junior, she is wiser than me in many ways. She always tells me, "Dad, when it's not fun anymore you should quit." Maybe I should follow her advice about this forum. This time, I think I should really listen to her.

No excuses for Honda in 2017 .

[GoranF1]

Wazari

I like Honda, i always did and i always will.
And i trust that you are who you say you are.
What i said is called critic....and if i say so what is my ultimate goal?
To help team or to spur you on for the future somehow.
The engine was not good, it really wasnt, ok you dont like the word sucked, ok it was just really really bad, worst engine on the grid....anyone who belives Ferrari gave TR same spec engine as they used in 2015 lives in fairy tail...Ferrari would trick their own mother up.

So maybe my thinking is strange but i still chear Honda on in 2017 and beyond.

[godlameroso]

On the topic of poor traction it's a two fold problem, it's either something to do with power delivery, or mechanical grip, or a combination of the two.

If it's mechanical grip, and the problem is on corner exit, then obviously the problem is with pitch sensitivity, because braking was never a problem. If the powerband is peaky instead of broad and smooth, then power delivery suffers and makes corner exit on traction limited corners difficult.

If I had to guess I'd say they were both responsible 50/50, and if Honda keeps making progress as it has then the fault could be 70(McLaren)/30(Honda).

Many people refuse to acknowledge it, but from 1998-2012 the McLaren cars were faster primarily because they had a superior engine to everyone else, and their chassis designs were rather fickle to say the least. Either the car required heavily revised B spec versions in the middle of the season, or they had to continue using last year's car because they went backwards with their new development. In 2009 it took McLaren half a season to turn that turkey around, but it had more to do with Mercedes making a better KERS system, better battery pack, and made it all lighter that actually let that car work, more than any brilliant chassis design.

in 2004-08 those were all evolutions of Newey designed cars, 2010 and 2012 were the last good cars made my McLaren, I believe those were Paddy Lowe creations. Although the 2011 wasn't bad.

This whole generation of cars 2014-2016 they've been average, and their improvements have given them slightly better chassis than the customer Mercedes teams, and no better than TR while the big 3 are clearly a step ahead.

I've said before that historically McLaren and Ferrari have been close to each other chassis wise, that .8 second deficit to Ferrari is mostly down to the power unit, but the 1.6 second gap to Mercedes and 1.2 to Red Bull is down to both but mostly chassis.

But all hope is not lost, hopefully McLaren like Honda have learned tremendously from these last 2 years, and gave themselves plenty of time to develop something for the new regulations.

We'll find out in 3 months, what I'm anxious to know is the engine layout, maybe drop a hint after the car reveal?

[godlameroso]

Criticizing is easy, but you have absolutely zero clue as to what is happening behind the scenes. And the amount of effort and investment that the parties are making in order improve is not something that deserves criticism.

Who knows what the power unit will be next year when they are able to create something with less design bottlenecks.

[godlameroso]

I would say that the only people that actually have a right to criticize are the people that are putting up the funds and resources for this project. They're the ones are that are putting their necks on the line, so to speak. Everyone else is being paid to do their job, and as long as they are doing their job properly the results will come. It's not a matter of if, but when, and that's been the mantra of everyone involved from day one.

[FW17]

It is funny that at the moment Alonso is being accused if being a driver who depends on the rear being planted and accused of Ferrari's front suspension woes in the ferrari thread, here he and McLaren are being accused of having a poor rear suspension.

How is it possible for 2 years of poor rear suspension design? Aren't McLaren big enough to make changes to the suspension through the season? They made hundreds of rear aero changes through the year and couldn't manage a change that would better there suspension for better traction?

In 2005 the team made and ran 2 different front suspensions for Jaun and Kimi, now they cant come up with a fix for traction with better rear suspension?

Have Mclaren become a bunch who cannot sort out a problem through the season that they have to wait for winter?

Something does not add up.

[mclaren111]

FW17:

In 2005 the team made and ran 2 different front suspensions for Jaun and Kimi, now they cant come up with a fix for traction with better rear suspension?

Have Mclaren become a bunch who cannot sort out a problem through the season that they have to wait for winter?

Something does not add up.

I agree. They should be able to do it easily !!! Minimum 2 until it works !!!

[FW17]

Does it make sense for team to continue on a rear aero package which compromises the rear mechanical grip for a whole season without a fix.

If they did it will be a completely new concept for next year, with whatever they did with aero for last two years completely binned.