Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:Thank you! And I hope you've had a good holiday. The block is getting hot-tanked on Monday, and hope to have all the machining done by next Friday. I have to make small reliefs at the bottom of the cylinders to clearance the new crank and rods. I also noticed the piston oil squirter jet for cylinder 4 was improperly installed from the factory, and the banjo bolt was not aligned with the squirter jets, surprised the block made it as long as it did(180k miles), I'm upgrading those since everything is apart.
huh?
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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I'm building an engine, for one of my cars. It's a unique build, nothing crazy or anything like that, just curious, hopefully this last bit of block machining is all I need, and I can start putting it back together. It's not completely off topic, it's a Honda power unit.

F20 block bored .26mm over, using an F22 crank, F20 rods and special shorter pistons, which leaves me with 12.5:1 compression ratio and a better rod ratio than a standard F22. F20 rod ratio is 1.88 F22 rod ratio is 1.6, but with this setup it's 1.68. So should allow for a rev limit somewhere in between the F22 and F20, but with F22 torque. This plus a little head work and a few odds and ends, I'm hoping to put this old 300,000km engine in my 260,000km chassis, and get another 250,000km of beating the crap out of it.
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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
Lucky wrote:
Wazari wrote: You might have a point there. :lol: I'm actually on holiday right now until the 4th. After logging 280 hours from the 2nd until the 23rd, I needed a break. This forum is a form of mental therapy for me.
In Europe you have a rest? Or insomnia
Here to you on an avtarka free of charge
http://www.antiquariy.ru/userfiles/hans ... ection.jpg
I am sorry but I don't understand your post? Also I am not in Europe?
I was wonder if i was the only one that didn't get the joke. lol

Wazari san,

Outside of the power of the engine, has Honda learned of differences in design of particular components between their engine and the competitions?
For example use of a particular oil pump design, or wastegate etc, or even intake manifold design etc.
Sometimes simple components and how they are designed and positioned can make a world of difference with reliability.
For Sure!!

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Wazari
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Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I really can't comment on your question.

Components of PU's for the most part are very closely guarded and outside of photographs and seeing the PU's up close on the track or the garage you really don't know what's inside the PU.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I've thought about this often, it bugs me to no end. With all the sensors in the car they must have quite a few components on the ragged edge. Afterall you only need to monitor things if their failure can be catastrophic. Most cars don't give you oil pressure for instance, they give you a dummy light. Or they don't give you a measure of fuel pressure, etc etc because none of those things matter in daily use. If you track your car you will usually invest in more gauges, but these cars are on another plane of existence. Pressure sensors, temperature sensors, flow sensors, fuel temperature sensors etc etc. There's a lot that can go wrong hence the need to micromanage all these different variables. Probably would drive you dizzy trying to monitor it all by yourself.
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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:I've thought about this often, it bugs me to no end. With all the sensors in the car they must have quite a few components on the ragged edge. Afterall you only need to monitor things if their failure can be catastrophic. Most cars don't give you oil pressure for instance, they give you a dummy light. Or they don't give you a measure of fuel pressure, etc etc because none of those things matter in daily use. If you track your car you will usually invest in more gauges, but these cars are on another plane of existence. Pressure sensors, temperature sensors, flow sensors, fuel temperature sensors etc etc. There's a lot that can go wrong hence the need to micromanage all these different variables. Probably would drive you dizzy trying to monitor it all by yourself.
Just because there's not a gauge for it on the dashboard of a road car, doesn't mean it's not being measured and adjusted for.
Invest a few bucks in an OBD-II reader and get an app like torque talking to it, and you'll see more of the things that are sensed on road car engines: MAF pressure, real temperatures, etc.
In the F1 world, the telemetry is far more in-depth and you don't "only need to monitor things if their failure can be catastrophic". Sure, these exist, but there are innumerable other things you would monitor for performance rather than reliability. You'd measure pressures on the chassis for aero as well as for engine parameters.

As an example - you would have several oil temperature sensors and oil pressure sensors, and oil level sensors (each for different locations on the engine/turbo/cooler). You would probably* want as little weight in the engine as possible with the smallest amount of friction, so you'd want the smallest amount of the lowest friction stuff you could get away with at the end of an engine cycle. For that you don't just have alert-style events (engine oil under pressure limit), you also have monitoring, tracking type information (eg. start of race, 3.5kg of oil, end of race 2.9kg of oil).
*probably. You might have a remote oil tank to move oil around as ballast because you have oil pumps, reservoirs etc.
I'd agree that it would be totally against the spirit of the rules while being entirely legal within the text of them.

More data is never a bad thing. At worst all you need to do is ignore the values you aren't interested in. At best, it can be used to drive development directions and win races.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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#-o

I already invested in a CAN BUS compatible snap on scanner for work.

:oops:
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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:#-o
I already invested in a CAN BUS compatible snap on scanner for work.
:oops:
It doesn't matter, as an ELM327 OBD-II/Bluetooth interface is only about £3/$5 and gives access to all the engine sensors.

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Now I feel like I wasted my money on this
https://www1.snapon.com/diagnostics/us/soluspro

:roll:

I could have just used a cheap eBay scanner to check solenoids, or calibrate TPMS, or diagnose power steering functions, or traction control, or do diagnostics on a hybrid system.

I guess it's all part of the manufacturer's conspiracy to keep techs buying overpriced sensor tools and passing the rape on to the customers, in order to maintain the perceptions that mechanics are lying crooks charging you $90 USD for a diagnostic check, when they could have just fixed the problem for free at Vato Zone. That is until the code the $30 scanner gave you has nothing to do with your issue, and you end up changing all sorts of things and never fix your problem. Then you end up spending hundreds of dollars, when I could have just diagnosed it for you changed the rectifier, and it would have been cheaper overall.
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PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:I'm building an engine, for one of my cars. It's a unique build, nothing crazy or anything like that, just curious, hopefully this last bit of block machining is all I need, and I can start putting it back together. It's not completely off topic, it's a Honda power unit.

F20 block bored .26mm over, using an F22 crank, F20 rods and special shorter pistons, which leaves me with 12.5:1 compression ratio and a better rod ratio than a standard F22. F20 rod ratio is 1.88 F22 rod ratio is 1.6, but with this setup it's 1.68. So should allow for a rev limit somewhere in between the F22 and F20, but with F22 torque. This plus a little head work and a few odds and ends, I'm hoping to put this old 300,000km engine in my 260,000km chassis, and get another 250,000km of beating the crap out of it.
I see. Fuel and ignition tuning definitely needed maximize the new geometry for sure. That's a lot of mileage. All the best on your build.

I had my share of vtec. Doing something different this time around.. Getting into the whole ECU tuning thing. Megasquirt 3X.
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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
godlameroso wrote:I'm building an engine, for one of my cars. It's a unique build, nothing crazy or anything like that, just curious, hopefully this last bit of block machining is all I need, and I can start putting it back together. It's not completely off topic, it's a Honda power unit.

F20 block bored .26mm over, using an F22 crank, F20 rods and special shorter pistons, which leaves me with 12.5:1 compression ratio and a better rod ratio than a standard F22. F20 rod ratio is 1.88 F22 rod ratio is 1.6, but with this setup it's 1.68. So should allow for a rev limit somewhere in between the F22 and F20, but with F22 torque. This plus a little head work and a few odds and ends, I'm hoping to put this old 300,000km engine in my 260,000km chassis, and get another 250,000km of beating the crap out of it.
I see. Fuel and ignition tuning definitely needed maximize the new geometry for sure. That's a lot of mileage. All the best on your build.

I had my share of vtec. Doing something different this time around.. Getting into the whole ECU tuning thing. Megasquirt 3X.
Thank you! I'll take all the encouragement I can get. An AEM EMS Infinity is in the plan, and some 550cc injectors(in case I want to run E85), still debating adjustable cam gears, I'll see what happens when I degree the motor, maybe just go low-tech and use some offset woodruff keys to get my timing where I want it.
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PhillipM
PhillipM
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Joined: 16 May 2011, 15:18
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Are we all running Honda's now in our racers? :lol: (Running a rebuilt F20C here, albeit supercharged)

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Wazari
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Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PhillipM wrote:Are we all running Honda's now in our racers? :lol: (Running a rebuilt F20C here, albeit supercharged)
Looks like everyone is, haha..... Happy New Year everyone!

BTW, J32 with some J37 parts in an old Miata. I know, I know.............
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I am buildng a snow plug for my Honda lawnmawler but this is not a thread for personal projects.
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

MrNoo
MrNoo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 19:17

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:I am buildng a snow plug for my Honda lawnmawler but this is not a thread for personal projects.
Flat 6 DFI engine in mine!!!