2021 Engine thread

[Tommy Cookers]

If there is some battery breakthrough and we wind up with a power density of 500w hr/kg it'll be a game changer. Overnight the ICE will be forgotten and discarded. ........

surely you mean 5000 ? (W-hr/kg)

[godlameroso]

5kw hr/kg that would be utterly insane. A 300kg battery pack would have 1,500kwh of capacity, where the most powerful Tesla is 100kwh, that's a 15x improvement, we wouldn't even bother burning anything to propel ourselves.

[Tommy Cookers]

what I meant was ......
500 corresponds to 1 ton of batteries for a GP - this won't cause the ICE to be put into a museum
5000 corresponds to 100 kg of batteries for a GP - this (implausible event) would cause the ICE to be put into a museum

[godlameroso]

You're right.

An average compact sedan with a 13 gallon tank has the equivalent of of a ~150 kwh battery pack. Given a current F1 fuel tank is ~33 32 gallons depending on the temperature, ~560kwh is probably all the energy you need to complete a grand prix distance maintaining current power levels.

[Twl197860]

http://fourtitude.com/wp-content/upload ... f6e60e.jpg

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Big/ ... lpaper.jpg

I was thinking of this, but never knew the block was wide angle 112 degree. It is stil different.

Thought Audi used a 120° block

[Cold Fussion]

You're right.

An average compact sedan with a 13 gallon tank has the equivalent of of a ~150 kwh battery pack. Given a current F1 fuel tank is ~33 32 gallons depending on the temperature, ~560kwh is probably all the energy you need to complete a grand prix distance maintaining current power levels.

If you ignore regeneration then you probably need closer to 650-700 Kwh of batteries once you factor in the battery conversion efficiency + electric motor efficiency.

[godlameroso]

You're right.

An average compact sedan with a 13 gallon tank has the equivalent of of a ~150 kwh battery pack. Given a current F1 fuel tank is ~33 32 gallons depending on the temperature, ~560kwh is probably all the energy you need to complete a grand prix distance maintaining current power levels.

If you ignore regeneration then you probably need closer to 650-700 Kwh of batteries once you factor in the battery conversion efficiency + electric motor efficiency.

Batteries and electric motors are MUCH more efficient at converting energy to power than a gas engine. Somewhere in the realm of 95% for the electromachines vs 48% for the current breed of ICE. So that discrepancy was haphazardly accounted for. About 560kwh is about right for an hour and a half, running with a peak power of 750kW, and an average output of 450kW. Which is more or less what the current power units are capable of.

Of course the current units have two modes of energy recovery even then, the combined efficiency is still right around 50% average efficiency.

And unless this can happen purely electrical means, then yes for a race series a battery will not replace the ICE, at least in it's current hybrid form.

Passenger car, I think we're pretty close.

[inox]

Having read the whole thread I'm surprised about general support to cut ICE cylinder count to 4 or even 3. Reducing cylinder count would be of course beneficial for ultimate efficiency but I can't see it as a good thing for the show. Although turbo and ERS in general can be blamed for the poor sound of current cars, another major cause is the cylinder firing frequency. Current V6 engines rev to about 12500 rpm. The firing frequency is about half of what it used to be in last generation of rev limited V8's. Now, if cylinder count is further reduced to 4 or 3, those engines would sound pretty much like current V6 running at 8300 rpm or 6300 rpm respectively. Certainly not impressing.

I agree F1 should have some road relevancy too and therefore support turbos even if they reduce the sound level. But do we really have to cut the amount of cylinders? F1 car is not supposed to be like your ordinary car. It should be a beast!

Road car manufacturers are currently facing an interesting problem. There is a need to downsize engines even more but limits seem to have be reached already as emissions on smaller engines get worse on the heavy loads. See e.g. this article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... r-engines/

It has been proven that 0.5 litre cylinder size is efficiency wise close to optimal and 3-cylinder unit is the most suitable configuration for turbo charging. Therefore optimal ICE would be 1.5 litre inline-3. But for packaging, weight and cost reasons it would still make sense to develop significantly smaller ICE's e.g. for assisting next generation of electric cars on longer trips. The assisting ICE could be a tiny turbo charged 0.5 litre inline-3. While it's obviously a challenge to make such a small ICE work efficiently, this is actually something where F1 could help. Not by directly copying the 3-cylinder unit but by multiplying the configuration by 4.

The result, 2.0 litre V12 with quad turbos would share a link to the future of road cars and also present the technical marvel of F1.

[rjsa]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s- ... ey-862437/

Let's just hope the hype wears off and we get the high revving screamers back.

[henry]

For reference

the current F1 ES is 1.1 KWhr and 50 Whr/kg.

Formula E is 28 KWhr and 122 Whr/kg.

[godlameroso]

For reference

the current F1 ES is 1.1 KWhr and 50 Whr/kg.

Formula E is 28 KWhr and 122 Whr/kg.

The capacity has to be small for the frequent and rapid charge and discharge rates, it's the nature of the beast.

I honestly didn't think the batteries were so limited in capacity.

[Cold Fussion]

You're right.

An average compact sedan with a 13 gallon tank has the equivalent of of a ~150 kwh battery pack. Given a current F1 fuel tank is ~33 32 gallons depending on the temperature, ~560kwh is probably all the energy you need to complete a grand prix distance maintaining current power levels.

If you ignore regeneration then you probably need closer to 650-700 Kwh of batteries once you factor in the battery conversion efficiency + electric motor efficiency.

Batteries and electric motors are MUCH more efficient at converting energy to power than a gas engine. Somewhere in the realm of 95% for the electromachines vs 48% for the current breed of ICE. So that discrepancy was haphazardly accounted for. About 560kwh is about right for an hour and a half, running with a peak power of 750kW, and an average output of 450kW. Which is more or less what the current power units are capable of.

Of course the current units have two modes of energy recovery even then, the combined efficiency is still right around 50% average efficiency.

And unless this can happen purely electrical means, then yes for a race series a battery will not replace the ICE, at least in it's current hybrid form.

Passenger car, I think we're pretty close.

If you use an engine efficiency of 45%, working with a LHV value of 44 MJ/kg and 100kg of fuel you find a fully loaded F1 car has around 550 Kwh of stored energy. The lithium ion chemical reaction to produce electricity is between 80-90% efficient according to 10s of internet searching, and F1 regulations assume an electric motor efficiency of 95%, which brings our battery pack size to 680 Kwh. If you assume a 50% engine efficiency the battery pack size increases to 760 Kwh.

[godlameroso]

Fair enough. Did you take into account that cars don't run at maximum output for the whole race?

Although I think we're close to having an electric only GT car. Even if it's 1,480kg, I think it could beat other GT3 cars in a sprint format. An FIA GT3 fuel tank is around 100 liters so about 440kWh, Which is no problem with a 400kW motor.

[Cold Fussion]

Fair enough. Did you take into account that cars don't run at maximum output for the whole race?

It shouldn't matter because I assumed an F1 car uses all of the allotted 100kg of fuel. Even if they use less than 100 kg, it's unlikely they'll even use as little as 90kg, so you can just add another 0.9-1 factor to the calculation and get essentially the same result.

Although I think we're close to having an electric only GT car. Even if it's 1,480kg, I think it could beat other GT3 cars in a sprint format. An FIA GT3 fuel tank is around 100 liters so about 440kWh, Which is no problem with a 400kW motor.

Considering that a lot of GT3 races require refueling I'd argue that we're even further away from a competitive electric GT3 car. Even if it were a sprint race, you'd have to build a GT3 car as light as an LMP1 car to offset the weight of the battery pack. Even with all of this, the BOP in GT racing would ensure the car was competitive regardless, rendering the whole point of technology exercise pointless.

[henry]

If you ignore regeneration then you probably need closer to 650-700 Kwh of batteries once you factor in the battery conversion efficiency + electric motor efficiency.

Batteries and electric motors are MUCH more efficient at converting energy to power than a gas engine. Somewhere in the realm of 95% for the electromachines vs 48% for the current breed of ICE. So that discrepancy was haphazardly accounted for. About 560kwh is about right for an hour and a half, running with a peak power of 750kW, and an average output of 450kW. Which is more or less what the current power units are capable of.

Of course the current units have two modes of energy recovery even then, the combined efficiency is still right around 50% average efficiency.

And unless this can happen purely electrical means, then yes for a race series a battery will not replace the ICE, at least in it's current hybrid form.

Passenger car, I think we're pretty close.

If you use an engine efficiency of 45%, working with a LHV value of 44 MJ/kg and 100kg of fuel you find a fully loaded F1 car has around 550 Kwh of stored energy. The lithium ion chemical reaction to produce electricity is between 80-90% efficient according to 10s of internet searching, and F1 regulations assume an electric motor efficiency of 95%, which brings our battery pack size to 680 Kwh. If you assume a 50% engine efficiency the battery pack size increases to 760 Kwh.

To be pedantic a fully loaded F1 car starts with around 1200 KWh of which it deploys around 550. The other 650 goes out of the exhaust or through the cooling system

An electric car built to the same overall shape and weight and using the same tyres would benefit from:

Smaller rads, needing to disapate perhaps 100 KWhr in the course of the race against maybe 250 for the current cars ( that, I admit is a guess)

Smaller and lighter power unit , perhaps 45 kg vs 145.

Smaller and lighter gearbox.

Lower and consistent cog.

Vestigial engine cover, no engine to cover, only the advertising space.

With the same power it would be faster down the straights and quicker through the corners, so it could maybe manage with a little less power. So maybe a 500 KWhr battery weighing 250kg would get the job done. So a battery target of 2000 Whr/kg

Come on battery makers what are you waiting for?