Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
GoranF1
GoranF1
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From Muramassa Autosport forums



another season review articles appeared recently
dotted parts for Hasegawa quotes

*Again these quotes are from Abu Dhabi GP weekend at the latest I'm sure, just unreleased old quotes coming out newly so you need to read together with previously posted articles instead of taking this or each as isolated set of remarks otherwise you'd get completely lost
**Also note (as always) that usually these articles are not full interview article but take quotes/remarks out of context to use for and construct article so must take that into consideration heavily


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2016.12.30
https://sportiva.shu...split/index.php

(on the turbo upgrade at Canada) That was extremely significant. Canada and the following race at Baku were power circuit so that it was hard to notice the effect of the upgrade, but if not for the upgrade we would've struggled much more. Actually that upgrade was the target figure we were aiming to achieve for the season opener, but at the point of the opening race we were only able to achieve half of that.

With regard to reliability, i think we can give ourselves a passing mark for the present. We still had kind of trouble that stopped the session and race retirement about twice, but it was not severe enough to prevent us from race participation, so as 2nd year of participation I think we deserve the grade.
However, in comparison with rivals, we are inferior in particular, so we must raise our game one more step. Next year, we'd like to start the season by securing more reliability than this year.

Gain of spec 2 (the intake upgrade introduced at Silverstone) was big, enough to be an annual update if it was in previous era. Silverstone is power circuit as well, so it was difficult to acknowledge its effect, but we just caught up with others in a situation where there was already a good gap, hence not enough to surpass rivals, so it was just about closing the gap a bit.

With spec 3 (Spa upgrade), we made further gain. Under the current format, it's "output = fuel consumption", so until we introduced spec 3, we struggled a lot with fuel consumption. From then on, fuel consumption during the race wasn't an issue anymore, so in that aspect it was quite positive.

(According to analysis by teams, at the end of the season PUs by 4 makers are roughly on par, the margin converted in lap time is about 0.1-0.2sec/lap, what do you think?) Yes, that's about right, I think. The gap to Merc isn't as big as 1.0sec or 1.6sec, also of course no way we are behind by as much as 100hp. If there was such huge gap, such thing like beating Williams cannot happen at least. At the end of the season, we were in a position quite close to Renault.
Regarding the performance gap, you measure it by difference in acceleration observed from outside, but after spec 3, we are not beaten by RBR in acceleration performance on straight. However, without a doubt they are superior to us in aero performance, so it's not possible to make simple comparison there, also you cannot know it for certain. One thing is that the gap between Renault works and RBR is too big so that it's hard to read, also it might possibly be that we are not inferior too much.

(due to the delay in development) at the point of season opener, it was obvious that the weakest point in our package was PU. However we are conducting development at a speed faster than ordinary, also certainly speed of our evolution is faster than Mercedes, I suppose. I'm hearing that they had been developing for 4 years or so prior to 2014 season, and that's their big advantage, I think. The issue of time, that we were late to start the development, was the most significant issue.

our structure is getting more and more competitive. Within both Mclaren and Honda, experience of each and single staff have grown, human relationship got better, so it's maturing as an f1 team.
That Fernando pointed it out finally is one contributing factor, but Mclaren side admitted "after all chassis is problem too" at last. That was substantial advancement I think. There is no use in pulling each other's legs, and they are understanding that there is no point in being stubborn against Honda, I guess.




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2016.12.31
https://sportiva.shu...lit_1/index.php

In order to close the gap to Merc at the point of 2015, we drew up a blueprint of increasing the performance by gaining 1sec with chassis and 1sec with PU. Not just ICE but also TC included.
But to be frank, we were not able to achieve none of them at the point of season opener. Deployment has improved a bit, but far from the targeted level. In reliability aspect, it has got a lot better compared to 2015 level, but was still having issues. There was no issue occurred in the race itself, yet lacking reliability in engine block itself, so there was water leak from there, turbo issue, and so on. In the early stage of the season, we often had water leak issues not only in MGU-H but also in the unit as a whole.

At the point of pre-season, I had a feeling that "as long as finish the race we can score". In fact looking at testing times it didnt feel like we were down at the bottom, and I was thinking we were around the position right behind top3. But ICE power was not good enough, deployment was insufficient, and at the long straight of Shanghai it has become evident that it was no good at all.

For Spec 1 (OZ version), airflow in intake system wasn't functioning as simulations and result of single cylinder evaluation, which was the cause for lack of power (info in the article)

In terms of original/initial plan, we were supposed/intending to race the opening race with the power we had at the final race, in the first place. So, I have to say we failed big time there.

(on spec 3 development) We struggled in confirming reliability. Even after the summer break began, the durability dyno was still in operation. At the stage of pre summer break, the spec itself was decided, so the rest was just about reliability confirmation, but if we encountered one single issue there, we wouldn't have been able to introduce spec 3, it was such tightrope situation, so I was kinda praying to wait for the outcome during the summer break. Ron-san was making phone call to us too (laughs).
(Spec 4 that had to be given up) If we could introduce the spec 4, we wouldve been able to go beyond our target for this season a bit. Theoretically we were seeing that, but when we actually manufactured it and tested on dyno, we were unable to get the expected output.

We have been improving our relative position obviously albeit gradually by the updates in TC and ICE intake and combustion, but I have to say that we were lacking technical capability to reach the level of Merc and Ferrari in the first place. Thus in the 2nd half of the season it was tough that we were struggling in a situation where we cant reach them no matter how hard we try.
To be frank, we knew at quite early stage that we wouldn't be able to catch up with Merc. It is that, we must review ICE framework fundamentally to make something that surpasses them.
I cannot disclose exactly what kind of technology in specifics, but we have already researched and considered all those new technologies being talked about publicly. Around early May (2016), we discussed about possibility that "how about putting 2017 development as the main task and introduce what can be used from there for 2016", but we reached the conclusion that we wouldnt be able to make it in time that way.

(on MP4-31) Unable to press on throttle so that full throttle rate of engine gets lower by as much as several percent than simulation (unnamed Honda personnel quoted)
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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Pierce89
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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diffuser wrote:So anyone what to venture a guess on when McHonda will Launch ?

Feb 21st to Feb 24th are booked Renault,FI,Merc and Ferrari. Will McHonda go before or after ?
When does testing start? Probably within 2-3 days before that.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Pierce89 wrote:
Wazari wrote:Please gentlemen, I assume this is an all male group, please respectfully do not PM me with questions asking me if what a journalist says is true with regards to specific information regarding next year's PU. It seems it's always the same handful people asking the same type of questions over and over again. I think it's obvious I can't and won't answer these type of questions. I am not trying to be rude but purposely evasive. I hope you understand that. I have had people asking me if what "supposedly" Andy Cowell said about us not using "TJI" is true. First off, why would he even comment on such a matter if he really did, and two would he really know what our planned combustion process is for the new PU?

All I can say is that I have spent over 75% of my time here working specifically on the combustion process and expect to see some of our team's efforts in the new PU. Again the goal being increasing fuel efficiency while achieving better torque curves and a slightly broader and higher power band.

BTW, the MP4-4 was brought out of mothballs for what I believe is some sort of promotion/photo shoot,
I already posted saying that in your position it's unreasonable to ask such questions.
You should see my inbox today.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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Wazari
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alexa wrote:@ Wazari

How did influence fuel/lubricant supplier switch form Mobile to BP/Castrol on new PU development.Hasegawa said that already at beginning of 2016 they formed the team on 2017 PU development,but then they where still working with Mobil?
99% of content of all the fuels used by all teams are the same. It's the 1% that's the secret sauce and yes we know what's in our secret sauce and can be mimicked. Moving forward all the fuel suppliers should have the ability to make advances in new blends. So not a concern.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Pierce89 wrote:
diffuser wrote:So anyone what to venture a guess on when McHonda will Launch ?

Feb 21st to Feb 24th are booked Renault,FI,Merc and Ferrari. Will McHonda go before or after ?
When does testing start? .
Feb 27
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
Wazari wrote:Please gentlemen, I assume this is an all male group, please respectfully do not PM me with questions asking me if what a journalist says is true with regards to specific information regarding next year's PU. It seems it's always the same handful people asking the same type of questions over and over again. I think it's obvious I can't and won't answer these type of questions. I am not trying to be rude but purposely evasive. I hope you understand that. I have had people asking me if what "supposedly" Andy Cowell said about us not using "TJI" is true. First off, why would he even comment on such a matter if he really did, and two would he really know what our planned combustion process is for the new PU?

All I can say is that I have spent over 75% of my time here working specifically on the combustion process and expect to see some of our team's efforts in the new PU. Again the goal being increasing fuel efficiency while achieving better torque curves and a slightly broader and higher power band.

BTW, the MP4-4 was brought out of mothballs for what I believe is some sort of promotion/photo shoot,
I already posted saying that in your position it's unreasonable to ask such questions.
You should see my inbox today.
I hate that posting here has started to cause you inconvenience. Hopefully people can gain a little common sense and common courtesy, but I wouldn't count on it. Anyways, maybe you should disable PM and stick people on your SPAM list as far as email, because it would be a shame for us to totally lose your insights and info. Maybe you could talk to Steven and do a periodical article and keep a lower profile on the forum. Hopefully though maybe the people will start to respect your right to privacy and you won't have to change anything.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I was just reading an official transcript of a press conference given by Hasegawa-san recapping the 2016 season to the Japanese media given on Dec. 30th. Here are some things that some might find interesting coming directly from Hasegawa-san.

Journalist: According to analysis done by all teams, at the end of the season all the PUs' power by the 4 manufacturers were roughly equal with the margin converted in lap times being about 0.1-0.2 sec per lap. Do you think this is correct?
Hasegawa-san: Yes, that's about right. The gap to Mercedes isn't as big as 1.0 sec or 1.6 sec and in no way are behind by as much as 100hp as has been reported. If the gap was that big then beating Williams would have never happened. At the end of the season we were about equal to Renault.

.......With regards to the performance gap, you measure it by difference in observed acceleration and after implementing our Spec 3, we were not beaten by RBR in acceleration performance on straights. However, without a doubt they are much superior to us in aero performance, so it's not possible to make simple comparison there and difficult to get the exact gap for certain. Another thing is that the gap between Renault and RBR is so large that it is difficult to evaluate but it is definitely possible that we are not inferior by much.......

...........due to our late start development at season start it was obvious that the weakest point in our package was the PU. However, our developmental rate was faster than other and certainly faster than Mercedes, I suspect. I heard they started in development of the current spec PU 4 years or so prior to 2014 season, and that's their big advantage. Our biggest issue is we were late to start the development of this PU..............................

...........our team getting more and more competitive. McLaren and Honda both have gained valuable experience of each and our human interaction has improved and we are maturing as a single F1 team...........

...........The fact Fernando finally stated this is a contributing factor, but McLaren has finally admitted "the chassis has problems after all". That was substantial advancement in my opinion toward our relationship. There is no use in pulling each other's legs and they I think they realize there is no point in being stubbornly blaming Honda........


Straight from the boss's mouth.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Also from Sr. Engineer Kobayashi: Drivers were unable to press on throttle as quickly as done in simulation (no grip/wheel spin) so amount of time at full throttle of the PU was lower by as much as several percent than anticipated......(slower lap time)..........
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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mclaren111
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
diffuser wrote:So anyone what to venture a guess on when McHonda will Launch ?

Feb 21st to Feb 24th are booked Renault,FI,Merc and Ferrari. Will McHonda go before or after ?
I hope last....just so others dont have time(or less time) to copy the beast.
Like your thinking buddy !! :D :D

alexa
alexa
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
alexa wrote:@ Wazari

How did influence fuel/lubricant supplier switch form Mobile to BP/Castrol on new PU development.Hasegawa said that already at beginning of 2016 they formed the team on 2017 PU development,but then they where still working with Mobil?
99% of content of all the fuels used by all teams are the same. It's the 1% that's the secret sauce and yes we know what's in our secret sauce and can be mimicked. Moving forward all the fuel suppliers should have the ability to make advances in new blends. So not a concern.
Are trying to say that Castrol made the sam fuel that Mobil did before they left?It's extremly important to keep the pace in fuel development,take for example shell it's fuel gain 25% total performance of 2015 Ferrari engine.

alexa
alexa
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:Also from Sr. Engineer Kobayashi: Drivers were unable to press on throttle as quickly as done in simulation (no grip/wheel spin) so amount of time at full throttle of the PU was lower by as much as several percent than anticipated......(slower lap time)..........
Mercedes because it had more power in it PU can use more downforce hence more grip, corner speed, and MH don't have that luxury, so they had to sacrifice many time grip to keep up in straight line speed.

f1316
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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According to motorsport:

"Honda set for Mercedes-style split turbine/compressor"

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... 0%5D=2&s=1

hurril
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f1316 wrote:According to motorsport:

"Honda set for Mercedes-style split turbine/compressor"

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... 0%5D=2&s=1
This seems to be an ongoing obsession with the whole F1 community these days. Especially interesting when it is said about the Honda engine, the one engine that already has a turbo layout/ configuration that is already very much akin to the Mercedes one.

Webber2011
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:Also from Sr. Engineer Kobayashi: Drivers were unable to press on throttle as quickly as done in simulation (no grip/wheel spin) so amount of time at full throttle of the PU was lower by as much as several percent than anticipated......(slower lap time)..........
So that's pretty much just a drive ability problem then Wazari ?

With these engines being so complex, it's pretty well known that mapping can have a huge effect.
I remember the Renault being quoted by Daniel Ricciardo at one stage, as being almost impossible to drive due to how it put it's power down before they got it all together.

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Thunder
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Don't forget McLaren hat issues with the Rear Suspension all Year wich resulted in lack of Grip.
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