Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Was it rear suspension or lack of a trick hydraulic FRIC simulator?

[Webber2011]

Don't forget McLaren hat issues with the Rear Suspension all Year wich resulted in lack of Grip.

Oh........ok mate.
I thought they got on top of that towards the last part of the season, but it does explain the quote from the engineer.

[HPD]

From Muramasa (Autosport Forums)

2017.01.09
https://sportiva.shu...1/09/_split_f1/


I often get asked, "what have you changed?", but I'm not aware of making any particular changes by myself, and don't have any stance of "I've got to do things like this consciously".
Through building the atmosphere that each and every staff can discuss what's happening at the venue and current subjects straightforwardly and by my own arrangement of understanding and giving priority order to those in order to be able to work on the tasks, we have been able to make steady, albeit still not enough, progress in this season
In 00s, I was not in such a position (of leader/representative), so there were instances where I couldn't say my opinion even if I wanted to, or my opinion wasn't accepted even if I spoke out. Ambiguity of whereabouts/location of problems, that it wasn't transferred/shared correctly in/as organization, that was the issue of that period.
In 00s, we were told a lot that engine power was lacking. I don't know if that was actually a truth or not, but in a position I was in at that time, I wasnt able to accept it. That was significant. But now I'm in this position (of leader), so I've said in the very early stage that "power is lacking, that's the major issue". There was a voice of "why do you have to say sth like that" among them, but you must start from sharing, infiltrating and accepting as a team on the whole.


(At winter testing in Barcelona) Every time we encountered initial teething troubles like water leak, we got told to death (by mclaren) like, "what the hell is going on?", "why cannot fix?", "let us fix together", etc. On Day 4 of testing where we have stopped after running mere 30km distance, we got told that "please bring 5 engines for the remaining 4 days" (laughs). But we were intending to run with just 1 unit, so we told "No, that's unnecessary, it's alright", and articulated and made it clear "what's unacceptable is unacceptable", "regarding this area we can do it by ourselves", "regarding that area however we'd like your cooperation" etc (to mclaren).
We have been telling mclaren extremely frankly matters like "we somehow managed to achieve", "what's impossible is impossible", "it's possible to introduce for next time" etc, also, there were things of not only "cannot do it" but also "can do it" occasionally, so (laughs). Through the process of managing to achieve what we promised to some degree, like turbo at Canada GP and Spec 3 for Belgium, we were able to build mutual trust.
For example, regarding the subject of timing of introducing spec 3.5, we discussed each other frankly like "spec 3.0 dont last any more", "change here or at USGP, what should we do?" and so on, also involving drivers in the discussion, like "then we have no other choice but to take penalty here. Next engine is fine, right?" etc, so through these exchanges we got to trust each other more and more, and are able to make decision making with everyone's consent.
By which, the atmosphere within the team got better, and drivers were able to start the race from the back of the grid in/with agreement/acceptance as well. That's why we were able to leave good results in Malaysia and US too.

What Jenson told me was, after my arrival "you now express explicitly that you can do what can be done, cannot do what cannot be done, so it was helpful in that aspect". But I myself have been aiming to build organization like that from the very moment I came here, so rather than I changed or manipulated consciously, that's how it should be naturally, I reckon. Especially so as a race team.


I say what I need to say in order for win.
Ross-san (Brawn) was extremely unequivocal. We were told plainly "you are responsible for the lack of top speed, do something" (laughs), but it wasn't like he intended to put all blame for bad result on the Japanese or anything, rather he was like that indiscriminately no matter who it was, so if you get told by him like that, you have no option but to do it even if the request was a bit unreasonable.
Ron-san as well, he was the type of person who put absolute priority on winning Mclaren rather than caring who's above and whatnot. Therefore there was zero instance where he didn't accept negative factors in themselves. I got told "we are no good because it's weak on your side!" million times tho (laughs), but he has never ever said like "we (mclaren) are not at fault at all", so.
Just like giving us (Honda) stern words, he was telling a lot to the team as well. What was so good in Ron-san and Ross-san was that, winning is the absolute priority no matter what, and they were completely uninterested in such frivolous things as saving team's face and contesting to decide who's superior etc. I'm truly grateful about that, and felt comfortable in carrying out / working on the task.

As for foreigner engineers, we are adopting them by recruiting from across almost all makers thoroughly rather than in particular. Therefore PU technologies from Europe is coming in one after another. Besides, this year we are using forces of not only Japan but also of mclaren's technology and engineers in UK quite a lot. That's the area we have changed in big way for this year.

[Joseki]

Putting the pieces together I think the main R&D is done at Sakura by Mr. Wazari and his co-workers, at Woking the battery pack (plus cables and stuff like that?) is developed by McLaren having them a lot of experience and being the new Formula E battery supplier and they do "minor" stuff at Mylton Keynes. Fascinating how a PU is being worked on the different places at the same time.

[amho]

Also from Sr. Engineer Kobayashi: Drivers were unable to press on throttle as quickly as done in simulation (no grip/wheel spin) so amount of time at full throttle of the PU was lower by as much as several percent than anticipated......(slower lap time)..........

So that's pretty much just a drive ability problem then Wazari ?

With these engines being so complex, it's pretty well known that mapping can have a huge effect.
I remember the Renault being quoted by Daniel Ricciardo at one stage, as being almost impossible to drive due to how it put it's power down before they got it all together.

I don't understand why u r talking about driveability problems?!these r my reasoning:
1- most of modern turbocharged engines have almost flat torque curve from low revs to high so only question is early turbo lag which is rectified by implementing Mgh-h.
2- Honda's small size compressor means low rotor inertia and therefore means smooth power delivery and minimum turbo lag )
3-From what I have seen Mclaren had quite long gear ratio especially in comparison to Mercedes and Redbull so less torque transmitted to wheels to causes instability under acceleration. (based on Tv footage of speed and rev and not based on empty claim of journalist)so Mclaren is not traction limited by power delivery.
4-someone here mentioned that lack of traction was due to running low wing area but as we know traction out of slow corners is simply based om mechanical grip.
I think the most important matter about engine mapping and drive ability is the way that they implement mgu-k during acc. and braking considering track layout which is quite manageable.

[Robbobnob]

Mapping isn't as straightforward as you would think. These are very complex machines and each MGU-H, K, and ICE have their own intrinsic behaviour, coupled with the behaviour of the electrical control system.

The throttle is an input to which you want to optimise your output given several constraints ( Fuel flow, Engine revs, MGU load etc) and having these all balance out to give the desired torque output is pretty tricky and involves a lot of trial and error.

They do a lot of this work in simulation as they can quickly test multiple variations to the control system in a peerwise manner to determine the optimum development path, but if an overarching assumption (such as mechanical grip level, aero levels) don't agree with the simulation it becomes much harder to optimise the control.

So a rear suspension problem will directly feed back into the mapping, into the torque delivery, then subsequently into the recovery and regen.

[Webber2011]

Also from Sr. Engineer Kobayashi: Drivers were unable to press on throttle as quickly as done in simulation (no grip/wheel spin) so amount of time at full throttle of the PU was lower by as much as several percent than anticipated......(slower lap time)..........

So that's pretty much just a drive ability problem then Wazari ?

With these engines being so complex, it's pretty well known that mapping can have a huge effect.
I remember the Renault being quoted by Daniel Ricciardo at one stage, as being almost impossible to drive due to how it put it's power down before they got it all together.

I don't understand why u r talking about driveability problems?!these r my reasoning:
1- most of modern turbocharged engines have almost flat torque curve from low revs to high so only question is early turbo lag which is rectified by implementing Mgh-h.
2- Honda's small size compressor means low rotor inertia and therefore means smooth power delivery and minimum turbo lag )
3-From what I have seen Mclaren had quite long gear ratio especially in comparison to Mercedes and Redbull so less torque transmitted to wheels to causes instability under acceleration. (based on Tv footage of speed and rev and not based on empty claim of journalist)so Mclaren is not traction limited by power delivery.
4-someone here mentioned that lack of traction was due to running low wing area but as we know traction out of slow corners is simply based om mechanical grip.
I think the most important matter about engine mapping and drive ability is the way that they implement mgu-k during acc. and braking considering track layout which is quite manageable.

Well they actually use engine mapping right down to each particular corner on any given track.
That's why you see drivers selecting different settings in between almost every corner.

It's hugely complex these days, and a bit more than just managing the mgu-k.

I can't remember where I read Ricciardo's comments as it was a long time ago now, so I can't find the quote.
But he said something along the lines of the throttle response being unpredictable, so he didn't know what to expect from corner to corner.
It had nothing to do with turbo lag or the like, it was purely down to the Renault engine maps, and how they decided to deliver the power.

I think you'll find that every single car on the grid is traction limited by power delivery.
If you unleashed all the available power coming out of a slow corner, even the Manor would break into wheel spin.

[FW17]

There were always talk through the year that the Mclaren ran as much rake as RBR but the movement of the suspension by design was limited. This meant that the suspension did not soften enough at corner exits to transfer the cars weight to the rear to aid traction.

[mclaren111]

There were always talk through the year that the Mclaren ran as much rake as RBR but the movement of the suspension by design was limited. This meant that the suspension did not soften enough at corner exits to transfer the cars weight to the rear to aid traction.

RBR had their "cheat" suspension

[godlameroso]

Remember a few pages back Wazari said there was something like 11cm of throttle pedal travel. Or about the same as in a clutch pedal.

Band aid fix for peaky power delivery, the power was there, but instead of it being a smooth swell, it was like a relatively sharp spike compared to the other power units.

Alonso's onboard on a drying Silverstone track shows how sensitive the throttle modulation is, especially with a drying track in the hair pins and slow corners. *edit(watch from 8:30 on) You'll notice on the next lap, how he consciously tries to be more delicate through Village.



How much of it is down to the chassis, and how much is down to the power unit, I'd say it's probably around 50/50. Let's see how much they improve when they work together in earnest.

[mrluke]

Remember a few pages back Wazari said there was something like 11cm of throttle pedal travel. Or about the same as in a clutch pedal.

Band aid fix for peaky power delivery, the power was there, but instead of it being a smooth swell, it was like a relatively sharp spike compared to the other power units.

Alonso's onboard on a drying Silverstone track shows how sensitive the throttle modulation is, especially with a drying track in the hair pins and slow corners. *edit(watch from 8:30 on) You'll notice on the next lap, how he consciously tries to be more delicate through Village.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsZjr7j2LUE&t=98s

How much of it is down to the chassis, and how much is down to the power unit, I'd say it's probably around 50/50. Let's see how much they improve when they work together in earnest.

We all know that the engines are powerful and the track is slippery when its wet, for context here is Ferrari from the same race:



I don't think there is enough information available in the Alonso video to deduce that the Honda engine is particularly "peaky" in comparison to the other manufacturers.

[godlameroso]

Compared to Raikkonen's onboard Alonso has a power delivery problem, not a downforce problem or overall power problem. Alonso's onboard was much later in the race than Raikkonen's onboard, the track had dried a bit more by then.

If you watch Mercedes chasing Verstappen, that car has neither downforce, suspension, nor power delivery problems. In certain instances he's doing over 320kph with DRS closed down the hangar straight. The Honda never gets over 308, it does 321 with DRS open, but that kind of pace wasn't sustainable.

[PlatinumZealot]

The McLaren rear end was terrible in 2016. Couldnt put the power down without wheelspin.. Imagine if they had a merc engine? How would they mange all that extra low end grunt?

[Craigy]

The McLaren rear end was terrible in 2016. Couldnt put the power down without wheelspin.. Imagine if they had a merc engine? How would they mange all that extra low end grunt?

They'd have been developing higher drag+downforce packages all year, given that they had class-leading power, so we'll never know.

[Robbobnob]

This is probably better suited in a general engine discussion, however:

Given the engines are going to be peaky by their design, I wonder how much of the torque mapping is using the MGU-K to dampen torque delivery rather than assist in torque delivery as the cars are grip limited, particularly at low speeds and with those pigs for tyres.

Given that Macca were struggling with rear grip, maybe they have had to use a lot more dampening than assist than say their competitors.

It must be a serious disadvantage not having a different chassis to compare differing delivery techniques.