A back-to-basics approach

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

A back-to-basics approach

Post

I was reading Katayama´s 1994 "could be" extraordinary season in F1 Rejects webpage when something called strongly my attention.
Perhaps the brand new regulations for 1994 had a part to play. While other teams found it hard to pen a car without traction control, active suspension, and all the other gizmos, a back-to-basics approach was exactly what Tyrrell and Yamaha needed, and Harvey Postlethwaite and Jean-Claude Migeot obliged. By practice in Brazil, Katayama was well aware that he had an effective car at his disposal, and by the end of Saturday he was 10th on the grid, his best-ever grid position...
Designing a F1 car for 1994 was probably difficult due to the lots of changes involved and we know that there were stability issues and lots of accidents that year.
So...
* What is exactly a a back-to-basics approach? (regarding chassis design)

* What should/could teams did for 2008 season taking into acount that it is may be similar to what happened in 1994 regarding TC ban (include rear ABS if you want, too)

By the way, Ukyo story is a very nice one to read!
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
Moderator
Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 10:51
Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

The wording of your quote is slightly misleading.

Please do not be offended if I seem patronise you but I read from that excerpt is the rules were going back to basics and this is what will suit Tyrell as they did not have the advanced TC etc.

Tyrell were already well placed in having a basic 1993 car and so they did not need to unlearn any technical advatages as they already had a conventional design that worked well.

to relate it to 2008 would be as if some of the read end teams did not run advanced ECU and TC etc and so they could be perceived to have an advantage by refining their current car.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Well, I'm not sure if the quote is entirely misleading; small is beautiful, brother... ;)

Image

I'm also not sure about this, but the Tyrrell of the early 90's is famous for a couple of things.

First, it was the first car with a "raised nose", or so I think.

I remember vaguely something about Postlewhite (is that the correct spelling?) and a French aerodynamicist called Migeout (or something like that) proposing the raised nose for increasing the air flow under the body. I think, in an similarly vague way, that there was a lot of scrutiny on this design, because Senna and Ratzenberger accidents had just happened. The car showed itself less sensitive to changes in ride height and the idea was quickly adopted by all the other teams. Here is the picture that I googled to "prove its existence":

Image

Secondly, and not precisely related to chassis, I think that Yamaha, Tyrrell partner in that times, produced (maybe after 1994?) the lightest and smallest engine in F1 history (to no avail, if I may add: if Toyota seems less than competitive today, imagine the gossip back then when Yamaha said in a public statement that they were in F1 for the fun, or something like that).

I don't remember the reference of the engine, but it was OX something. Sorry for the lack of memory, it was some time ago. I think I still used T-shirts like the one in the first picture... ;)
Ciro

nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

i would take back to basics to mean something along the lines of having a chassis that can drive rather than a supper solid one that the computers modulates the power for

a bit like a stealth aircraft only flying with its computers
and a spitfire having actual wires going to the controls

just my 2p
..?

donskar
donskar
2
Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Very interesting topic. One quibble on the raised nose: I believe the first F1 with a raised nose (and it was a very slight raise) was one of the Leyton House/March cars. I believe it was a Newey design.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Tyrrell 019 from 1990 WAS the first car with raised nose and it didn't have Yamaha but Ford Cosworth DFV V8 engine. Yamaha came one year later and it might have been smallest since it used desmodromic valve actuation.

Image

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Image
R28 anyone? the wing, zero keel... back to basics? :)

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:The wording of your quote is slightly misleading.

Please do not be offended if I seem patronise you but I read from that excerpt is the rules were going back to basics and this is what will suit Tyrell as they did not have the advanced TC etc.

Tyrell were already well placed in having a basic 1993 car and so they did not need to unlearn any technical advatages as they already had a conventional design that worked well.
No offence CMSMJ1, thats why I posted! :D Just didn´t get what were this guys trying to say with "back-to-basics". Maybe you are right.

Tyrrell car from 1994 was a low nose desing:
Image
Yamaha´s small/light engine coud be guessed due to the very small sidepods you can see better in this pics:
Image

Here is the engine and specifications:
Image
Type: OX10A (Judd GV)
Year: 1991-1994
Number of cylinders: 10
Configuration: 72°, vee
Weight: 130 kg (not too light to be precise, but maybe for that time)
Capacity: 3496
RPM: 13500
Length: 622,5 mm
Height: 417 mm
Width: 555 mm
Power: over 750 bhp

Then, this 1996 version is very light:
Image
Type: OX11A (Judd JV)
Year: 1996-1997
Number of cylinders: 10
Configuration: 72°, vee. DOHC. direct lifter type, cam gear drive
Weight: 105 kg (dry)
Capacity: 2996
RPM: 16000
Length: 570,25 mm
Height: 385 mm
Width: 511 mm
Power: over 700 bhp

But surely not the lightest and smallest engine in F1 history (I know there were 90Kg- engines till the stupid rule to limit its weight).

In 1996 Imola GP I remember Salo with Tyrrell was comfortably holding Barrichello in Jordan Peugeot with 15 Km/h top speed less, due to Yamaha underpowered powerplant, until it exploded. Good chassis, no engine nor reliablility.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

donskar wrote:Very interesting topic. One quibble on the raised nose: I believe the first F1 with a raised nose (and it was a very slight raise) was one of the Leyton House/March cars. I believe it was a Newey design.
No, it was Tyrrell

http://www.allf1.info/map.php
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Belatti wrote:But surely not the lightest and smallest engine in F1 history (I know there were 90Kg- engines till the stupid rule to limit its weight).
Well, I should have said "until that date". There are engines under 90 kg, for example, BMW engines for Williams weighed less than that.

Anyway, I haven't found a reason why the chassis was "basic". Perhaps you could ask the people at F1 rejects. enoch@f1rejects.com Mr. Yan-Tak Law answers his mail, I'm sure about that.
Ciro

dumrick
dumrick
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
Location: Portugal

Re: A back-to-basics approach

Post

Belatti wrote:I was reading Katayama´s 1994 "could be" extraordinary season in F1 Rejects webpage when something called strongly my attention.
Perhaps the brand new regulations for 1994 had a part to play. While other teams found it hard to pen a car without traction control, active suspension, and all the other gizmos, a back-to-basics approach was exactly what Tyrrell and Yamaha needed, and Harvey Postlethwaite and Jean-Claude Migeot obliged. By practice in Brazil, Katayama was well aware that he had an effective car at his disposal, and by the end of Saturday he was 10th on the grid, his best-ever grid position...
Designing a F1 car for 1994 was probably difficult due to the lots of changes involved and we know that there were stability issues and lots of accidents that year.
So...
* What is exactly a a back-to-basics approach? (regarding chassis design)

* What should/could teams did for 2008 season taking into acount that it is may be similar to what happened in 1994 regarding TC ban (include rear ABS if you want, too)
My understanding of that quote is that, when electronic systems are dumbed down, the basic chassis design is relatively more important for the overall performance of the vehicle.
Nowadays, things are different and even Spyker managed to have efficient TC systems, whose difference in performance in comparison with the top teams was probably not relevant. But in the early 90's, there were very important technological differences through the field, with some teams having fully functional semi-auto gearboxes, active suspensions and traction control systems and others struggling to make any of these systems functional, let alone reliable. The dumbing down in 1994 clearly allowed for small teams with good engineers, that previously were trailing behind by the lack of technology (and active suspension alone provided a substantial performance gap) to rely for the first time in 2 or 3 years solely in a sound chassis conception and to be competitive with it.

Mind you, this doesn't imply that there is any substantial difference in chassis conception because of these technologies. The only technology that really meant differences in conception was active suspension, since the aero package could be optimized for a stable ride height and didn't have to cope with variations. In a way, active suspension was a good thing to prevent the need for the construction of ever bigger and more precise windtunnels and to save costs in windtunnel time, because technology limited the variation in inputs teams must study their vehicles for. The other requirements to achieve a good chassis are fundamentally the same, with or without performance-enhancing technologies.

After all this dissertation (I can't ever again write about chequered's posts :oops: ) here is what I really wanted to say: the "back-to-basics approach" probably refers to the rules and not to chassis conception.

On the topic of the raised nose, the Tyrrell was the first car where it was so evident, but the 1986 Benetton (the 186) already had a stepped nose (a raised nose therefore), to allow bigger air volume below the car, to avoid choking in the flat bottom and to accelerate the air going under it, reducing pressure.