2017 F1 general testing thread

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Mr.G
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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henra wrote:
jonas_linder wrote:
turbof1 wrote:What do you guys think about a separate, statistical/mathematical testing topic?
I would appreciate it! There is too much opinions in this thread and the good stuff gets lost among it. Especially if you catch up at the end of the day when there are several new pages to browse through!
Me too.
Would be also better readable after some time and it would still be of interest as a point of reference.
Same here...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

Wass85
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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A nice video of the Mercedes drivers at work, at around 52 secs Hamilton nearly bins it.

https://youtu.be/1__b5ukHccQ

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Mr.G wrote:
henra wrote:
jonas_linder wrote:
I would appreciate it! There is too much opinions in this thread and the good stuff gets lost among it. Especially if you catch up at the end of the day when there are several new pages to browse through!
Me too.
Would be also better readable after some time and it would still be of interest as a point of reference.
Same here...
Done! http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=26028

Warning! read the rules of the topic here:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 77#p680477
#AeroFrodo

GoranF1
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Just read Autosport plus article by Gary Anderson.

He puts Renault in 3rd, infront of Redbull, he says Ferrari is half a second faster then Mercedes and puts Sauber in 6th.

How does he have a job at Autosport?
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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SiLo
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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GoranF1 wrote:Just read Autosport plus article by Gary Anderson.

He puts Renault in 3rd, infront of Redbull, he says Ferrari is half a second faster then Mercedes and puts Sauber in 6th.

How does he have a job at Autosport?
I swear everything he writes that appears on the BBC website has been wrong for years. He can't even get the obvious stuff right.
Felipe Baby!

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Another great video here, a comparison of the Mercedes and Ferrari.

https://youtu.be/BGGUF-34c-8

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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SiLo wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:Just read Autosport plus article by Gary Anderson.

He puts Renault in 3rd, infront of Redbull, he says Ferrari is half a second faster then Mercedes and puts Sauber in 6th.

How does he have a job at Autosport?
I swear everything he writes that appears on the BBC website has been wrong for years. He can't even get the obvious stuff right.
At this point if GA said that the cars have 4 wheels on them, I'd start checking the rules to see if they'd changed... :P
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

edu2703
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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GoranF1 wrote:Just read Autosport plus article by Gary Anderson.

He puts Renault in 3rd, infront of Redbull, he says Ferrari is half a second faster then Mercedes and puts Sauber in 6th.

How does he have a job at Autosport?
#-o
Last edited by edu2703 on 04 Mar 2017, 04:22, edited 1 time in total.

edu2703
edu2703
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Do you want to see a good analysis on the pre-season tests this week by team? This one was written by Adaulto Silva, a Brazilian F1 journalist. He is not widely known outside Brazil, but his analysis is the best I've read so far. Translated using '' Google Translate '', then expect to see some english mistakes.

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MERCEDES - The W08 is the car to be beaten and Hamilton is the driver to be beaten. They did at least two race simulations with medium tires and they had no problems. Bottas did some laps with super soft and even ultra soft tires, when he set 1'19.705 getting the fastest lap of the week. On the last day they had a small electrical problem, but it did not seem anything too serious that could not be resolved until next week.

The W08 does not have the famous "shark fin", but nothing prevents it from appearing with one, maybe not in the next tests, but in Melbourne. Anyway, Mercedes did not seem to have the same amount of slack that they had in the first four days of 2016. The car slides off the front on the fast corners (understeer), especially with medium tires. The second team (Ferarri) was closer. And there is still the case of suspension that can suffer sanctions from FIA.

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FERRARI - Surprising! The Italians did not use what James Allison was programming for this car and started late from scratch. All with people 'from Italy'. Historically this has not been working for Ferrari. In the last 20 years the Scuderia has needed a lot of 'foreign' engineers to succeed, but this time the car looks well-born. With much more mileage - only losing to Mercedes - than they did last year, long stints and reliable, good speed on the straight and optimum performance on the curves, the SF70H proved much stronger than expected.

Both Raikkonen and Vettel made long stints with medium tires and the car behaved very well in the braking and cornering, balanced and without much escape from ideal race line. And with consistent times. Let's see what the Italians book us for the tests next week, but they certainly started very well. It remains to hope that the car does not 'undo' as it has happened before. But I'm optimistic.

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RED BULL - Much more discreet than expected. Fifth team in mileage and the third in time, with Ricciardo being 1.2s slower than Vettel (Ferrari) with the same tire compound. It was expected some cool aerodynamic solutions from Newey, but they did not show up. At least until now. The rumor is that from next Tuesday the car will come up with several new aerodynamic appendages that can greatly improve lap time.

Renault's power unit - named TAG Heuer for commercial purposes - is new. The PU seems to have improved compared to 2016, but what about reliability? No car with a Renault engine has gone much in the first four days. Red Bull itself ran only half of Mercedes' mileage, as well as the car not having impressed in corners. Obviously it does not look bad, but Ricciardo and Verstappen don't managed to get around the long corners of Barcelona at the same speed as the Ferrari drivers came around - with the same type of compound.

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RENAULT - Started well in relation to what we saw in 2016. It's a car with a lot more potential than last year, but to fight for podiums seems very unlikely, but not impossible. Joylon Palmer, who is a much better driver than Brazilian fans think, did great stints during first four days and his best lap was even faster than the best of Max Verstappen (with the same tire compound), which is a sensational and theoretically better driver in a better car.

Let's see what Renault will peform in the next four days, but for now it seems to be the fourth best team. The fight there is going to be good.

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WILLIAMS - Very impaired by the crashes of rookie Lance Stroll, the team ran little in the first four days. Massa opened the works on day 1 and drove well, even better than expected. The Brazilian completed 103 laps with very good stints and his best lap (1'22.076) was the third of that day, only 0.4s slower than Hamilton, with the same soft compound. But from the second day... Stroll, who had trained with an old car from Williams and much slower, began to make some mistakes that greatly undermined the development of car. He drove only 12 laps and crashed, damaged the front wing and could not get back.

Stroll started better the third day. He managed to complete 98 laps and was in P6 with 1m22.351s of soft compound, But then he crashed on Turn 5 and everything ended for Williams, who could not even train on day 4. Felipe Massa only trained once in the four days .

It's possible to predict that Felipe Massa could improve his own time by at least half a second (with the same soft compound), perhaps more, if he had trained on day 4. This Would be more or less between the best time of the week for Palmer and Verstappen, which is not bad for Williams.

Let's see what Williams will do next week in the second half of practice. The car is at least reliable and looks reasonably fast on the corners, it remains to know how the car will behave on long stints.

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McLAREN: Talking about McLaren is sensitive. Many Brazilians have this team as their favorite. Fittipaldi and then Senna made history here. Senna became legend. Today we have Fernando Alonso, who is loved by some and hated by many. I do not love or hate Alonso, I just consider him one of the best drivers I've seen in these 44 years with F1. It certainly is on my list of the top 10 in history. And McLaren for me does not stink or smell. Of course I have respect for his story, I respect Ron Dennis for having the courage and the ability to administer Senna - Prost, probably the two best drivers in F1 history on the same team at the same time. Only Ron Dennis has this merit in the history of F1, which is absolutely impressive.

But Dennis is not infallible and he was wrong. He was so mistaken that he took McLaren to limbo. The team lost sponsors for asking too much, then lost the best F1 driver, finally lost the best F1 engine. In that process he also lost first-rate technicians and engineers to his opponents. The result is a team that once struggled every year for title and today struggles to stay in the middle of the pack.

Is this going to change this year? For the first four days, the answer is no. Honda engine remains fragile and pushes less than the others. Has it improved in terms of power? Yes, but the difference was so great that just like at Renault, everything is new in the Honda power unit. And it will break, of course it will break. It's already breaking. Will the Japanese be able to get at least close to the Ferrari and Mercedes units? One day they will, but not in 2017.

And the car? Well, the car so far is not much. It's a nervous car, a car that escapes from the race line with great ease, a car that in those first four days had to brake very early before enter the corners. A car with medium compounds showed very little grip on the corners. A car that only made more mileage than Toro Rosso, a team full of problems at the start.

Alonso and Vandoorne could not do long stints. In addition to the imminent fear of engine breakdown, both made the long curves of Barcelona braking before and with the car dancing in its outline, corrections at all times, delay in reacceleration. Anyway, far from where it should be.

Both the engine and the car have to improve a lot so that some McLaren driver can play a P5 for example, in races. At this very moment, the car is more to fight to get into Q3 than anything else. It remains for its huge crowd that Honda and McLaren people find brilliant solutions in short term, otherwise ...

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FORCE INDIA - The team did not impress at the start. He made his fastest laps with both drivers using super-soft compounds and even then they were P15 and P16 overall. In mileage they only ran more than McLaren and Toro Rosso. Williams does not count because he stayed one day without running for lack of parts, otherwise they would have run much more than Force India. And guys, what a ugly car!

There seems to be missing downforce in the car, which brakes very early and is so slowly on the corners, just like McLaren. In 2016 they surprised and stayed in P4 in the constructors' championship. This year I doubt they will. Unless they have something very good up their sleeve to show next week.

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HAAS - The team - now in its second year in F1 - made good mileage this week and was better than Force India and McLaren. The Ferrari engine helps, pushes and looks confident. Grosjean complained about the brakes again, something that needs to be reviewed because it's a very sensitive part who give to driver confidence. Unpredictable brake equals frightened pilot. And frightened pilot does not push 100% of what he can, because he knows that at any moment the brakes can fail

Dallara makes the chassis and they've never been good in downforce, which is more important in F1 than in any other motorsport category. They seem to be able to play against McLaren and Force India earlier this year. But then they need to find more downforce or they will stay behind.

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SAUBER - As incredible as it sounds, Sauber was the team that most ran in the first week after Mercedes and Ferrari. At least the car looks reliable. And it's not that slow compared to opponents compared to last year. The reliability of the Ferrari engine showing itself once more.

The point here is downforce (once again) and adaptation to the tires of harder compounds. The car even goes reasonably well with super-soft, with soft, drops to just reasonable and with medium becomes slow. Any car in F1 has to perform well with medium tires because they are the most used in racing, so it's no use to train a lot with softer tires because the reality will be different when the championship starts.

Ericsson made good time with super-soft tires, but it was a very short stint with new tires. Let's see next week.

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TORO ROSSO - Total disappointment in the first week. The car is designed by one of F1's best engineers and aerodynamic specialist, James Key. The engine is the Renault and that's where they 'died' in the first four days. Unlike Renault and Red Bull, who already used the Renault engine last year, Toro used Ferrari, so this engine is new for them. This means that the adaptation of the unit in the car suffered too much and led to a series of small problems that prevented them from completing a good mileage.

Toro Rosso was the team that ran the least and the one that made the worst time. But despite this - which seems a contradiction - the team has the potential to recover in the short term. The chassis is good, the aerodynamics theoretically too, the front suspension is practically the same as Mercedes and the engine is the same used by Renault and Red Bull.

Original article (In Portuguese): http://www.autoracing.com.br/analise-da ... 1-parte-1/
Last edited by edu2703 on 05 Mar 2017, 18:32, edited 2 times in total.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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turbof1 wrote:
GPR-A wrote:
whatthefat wrote:[*]The 2016 Soft compound tended to degrade very quickly (especially at Barcelona, which is a tyre killer), resulting in a clearly nonlinear progression in lap times.
[*]Within about 5 laps, this resulted in a cross-over point between lap times on a worn 2016 Soft and a fresh 2016 Medium. This was strategically important, because it allowed drivers to pit at that point onto a fresh medium tyre to attempt an undercut. Depending on the circuit, this cross-over point tended to occur around 5-15 laps into a stint.
[*]Degradation rates for both the 2017 compounds are lower and much closer to linear. Based on data so far, the 2017 Soft compound degrades just slightly quicker than the 2017 Medium -- there is nothing like the difference in wear rates between compounds seen in 2016. The 2016 Medium could become faster than the 2016 Soft after a while, due to different degradation rates. The 2017 Medium seems to start slower and stay slower, at least over the range examined so far.
[*]The cross-over point between a worn 2017 Soft and a fresh 2017 Medium now comes much later, around lap 12.
[*]The relative benefit for an extra pit-stop is now also much smaller, meaning we should expect fewer pit-stops (somewhat stating the obvious). As a rule of thumb, a pit-stop costs around a net 20-25 seconds these day, due to the low pit speed limits. Making that up on tyres that lose ~0.08 sec per lap in 2017 is going to be challenging compared to making that up on tyres that were losing ~0.13 sec per lap in 2016.[/list]
It seems you missed a critical point here, the track temperature! Barcelona is a tyre killer in hot summer, when the Race is scheduled, not in colder temperatures of February. You have also failed to understand the race situation where drivers' are running behind each other and destroying tires, unlike in Winter Testing, where they run in a convenient, uninterrupted way. If all or most of your analysis is based on that, then you might have to rework it.
Dude, there is nothing to rework at this point. There is no 2017 race data, no 2017 practice data. We only had one week of testing now and within that framework he made a comparison with last year's first week testing, which was run in the same conditions, meaning dirty air is omitted, actually just not present, as a variable in both the 2016 and 2017 regressions. Which means you neither to worry about it.

Once we are in Melbourne he will probably make the same comparison for that. Criticism is fine, but it has to make sense. There's no issue with the data he compared, as both data sets have the identical conditions.

For the record, the author has a doctorate in mathematics:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/about/
Come man, he is making a bold statement that the degradation has decreased and comparing it to 2016. Does that it even makes sense? PIRELLI has already made a statement that the tires are going to be more durable, so why does it require a guy with a Doctorate to repeat that again? Having watching F1 so long, do you seriously think it makes sense to compare winter testing data of all new specification tires and cars and compare it with past configuration cars? Make some sense turbo.

Besides, we have so many, so called experts, on various websites doing the same thing and every year it is the same story. For the record, I have never seen a single EXPERT going back and proving that, their post winter-testing theory right, after the Spanish GP happens, using the race data. So why even bother playing with hot air balloon. If someone wants to keep themselves occupied with numbers, for those people the winter testing number crunching is fun, but people who have been watching F1 for long, all it matters is to know if a team is in good stead or not. Those who are knowledgeable understand that, there are way too many variables are in play in winter testing to assess any team's performance or for that matter, even tire performance.

Imagine this, did anyone at winter testing made a right call about the s**t storm that would come about the 2013 Kevlar belt tires? Did we see even one single instance of delamination in 2013 Winter Testing? What happened in the season? That is just one example.

Here is the conclusion that he had made after 2016 Winter Testing:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/03 ... orm-guide/
Summary
While I would still give an edge to Mercedes, Ferrari are showing initial signs of having closed the gap, perhaps to the point where this season’s championship battle could be a two-horse race. A little concerning is the fact that no other teams appear to be very close to Mercedes or Ferrari. To compensate, however, the battles of upper through lower midfield should be extremely tight. Not only do we have an extra team on the grid, both Manor and Haas look respectable, and may also be closely matched with one another. In all respects, this bodes for an entertaining season!
After 2016 Winter testing, everyone was beating the chest that Ferrari is either equal or only around 2 tenths behind. The result? At the very first grand prix in Melbourne, the best Ferrari trailed the best Mercedes by 8 tenths in qualifying and when the circus returned to Barcelona for Spanish GP, the best Ferrari was trailing the best Mercedes by 1.1 seconds. What did the experts and the guy with the Doctorate miss?

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Like him or not....

MARKO: We are still driving with conservative mappings
He further observed, “Turn 1 through to Turn 3 is where you can see with the naked eye the differences between the individual cars. The drivability of the [Mercedes] engine and the packaging is incredible.”

Marko also revealed that Red Bull have still not turned up the wick on their power unit, “We are still driving with conservative mappings. Let’s see how it looks when we drive at full power.”

And added, “You can hear that Mercedes is doing the same thing, and their V6 turbo is still far from the limit.”

After the four days of testing in Spain, it appears that Ferrari have a strong and reliable package, but Marko is wary of reading too much into the performance shown by the Italian team.

Marko said, “It depends on how much fuel they have on board. Watching Vettel when he braked into the first corner [Wednesday], there could not have been much fuel in the tank.”

evered7
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Isn't GA just mirroring what the Brazilian guy is saying? Although the .5 sec comment could have avoided, both are putting Renault ahead of RB and say Ferrari look good. If we consider one to be good and other to be complete BS, it is contradictory to say the least.

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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GPR-A wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
GPR-A wrote:It seems you missed a critical point here, the track temperature! Barcelona is a tyre killer in hot summer, when the Race is scheduled, not in colder temperatures of February. You have also failed to understand the race situation where drivers' are running behind each other and destroying tires, unlike in Winter Testing, where they run in a convenient, uninterrupted way. If all or most of your analysis is based on that, then you might have to rework it.
Dude, there is nothing to rework at this point. There is no 2017 race data, no 2017 practice data. We only had one week of testing now and within that framework he made a comparison with last year's first week testing, which was run in the same conditions, meaning dirty air is omitted, actually just not present, as a variable in both the 2016 and 2017 regressions. Which means you neither to worry about it.

Once we are in Melbourne he will probably make the same comparison for that. Criticism is fine, but it has to make sense. There's no issue with the data he compared, as both data sets have the identical conditions.

For the record, the author has a doctorate in mathematics:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/about/
Come man, he is making a bold statement that the degradation has decreased and comparing it to 2016. Does that it even makes sense? PIRELLI has already made a statement that the tires are going to be more durable
...
So in one sentence you find it a bold statement, while in the next one you say pirelli confirmed it. And you say I have make sense? Right... .

I'm not going to dignify that with a further answer. If you fail to see the significance and objectivity of statistics and mathematical models on a technical boards, then maybe this is not the place for you.
#AeroFrodo

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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turbof1 wrote:I'm not going to dignify that with a further answer. If you fail to see the significance and objectivity of statistics and mathematical models on a technical boards, then maybe this is not the place for you.
You are generalizing what is supposed to be in a context and coming back a response that doesn't stay in the context. I expected better than this from you. Think for a minute, What's the point of making the same mathematical models (full of assumptions and ignoring way too many concrete variables), when year and year they get proved to have strayed so far away from reality.

Don't you think this place would be better, if you encourage and allow questioning of the posts for the logic that has been used to derive such posts? By shutting down and driving people away, you only make this place illogical.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

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Wass85 wrote:A nice video of the Mercedes drivers at work, at around 52 secs Hamilton nearly bins it.

https://youtu.be/1__b5ukHccQ
he binned at some point but nearly no one noticed:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 30659.html
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.