2017 F1 general testing thread

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
ironrose
ironrose
1
Joined: 16 Jul 2012, 14:11

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Andrew Benson Theory:

Right, now the dust has settled after that little pre-lunch lap-time excitement, let’s have a little think about what it might all mean. Sebastian Vettel set a 1:19.0 on ultras and a 19.3 on super-softs in the Ferrari. But a) it seems he may have deliberately backed off on both those laps; and b) he did a 19.3 on the softs - which should theoretically be at least a second slower than the ultras and 0.6-0.7secs off the supers. So let’s take that 19.3 as his benchmark.

Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton did a 19.3 on the ultra-softs. But we already know he can do at least a 19.84 on the softs from Tuesday.

In theory, that puts the Ferrari 0.5secs up on the Mercedes. However… Traditionally, Ferrari run less fuel in their cars in testing than Mercedes do. Of course it’s possible that they have changed that, but let’s assume for a moment that both teams are doing the same as normal.

Mercedes are widely believed to run about 60kg of fuel in their car in testing - that’s two seconds’ worth; Ferrari about 30kg - that’s one second.

So if that’s the case here, Vettel’s potential quickest lap on qualifying-level low fuel is an 18.3 on softs. Hamilton’s is a 17.8. A half-second advantage for the Mercedes. Which based on recent history, is probably about what would be expected. Perhaps that’s why Vettel said Ferrari have a lot of work to do...


Come on Gary Anderson ... Lets hear yours ...

User avatar
DVB
11
Joined: 21 Aug 2015, 22:52

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Shakeman wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
Shakeman wrote:
It also goes the other way, struggling teams have been known to run light and look racy in testing to help getting sponsors. Williams have done this in the past.
Sauber as well, in 2010. McLaren even looked like they were amazingly fast in 2013, after which it transpired they installed a suspension part in a wrong way which ran the car too low.

It all shows how few faith you can put in the top times sheet. Whatthefat understood where you can actually get more reliable conclusions from, and that's the long runs. Unfortunaly that's not as exciting for people and media alike.
That's why that Russian F1 testing site was so good because you could see the stint lengths and tyre deg and get a 'feel' for who was good on tyres and race pace.

It's not normally until the 3rd race we really know with great certainty the real pecking order. Melbourne is not always a good guide and anomalies have been thrown up in the past.
You mean this one? https://f1.tfeed.net/live?hc_location=ufi
Everybody is a Ferrari fan.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Wass85 wrote:Vettel looks on fire, I think Ferrari's pace is genuine. I hope for the sports sake they are a match for Mercedes. I still don't understand why they are doing a lot of running on the medium tyre though.
Bear in mind that it his last chance to drive before Aus. Both Mercedes drivers get to play again tomorrow whereas Vettel is out of the car later today and that's it. In effect, Mercedes get to do more work today and then let each driver off the leash tomorrow if they feel like it.

I don't think Mercedes will go for a show of pace, however. Better, if they know they're carrying pace, to let Ferrari guess where they are. I think RedBull are doing this too.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

bblundell72
bblundell72
0
Joined: 16 Mar 2011, 19:36
Location: ATL

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Restomaniac wrote: The token system meant you could tinker, now you can make wholesale changes when you want.
True but they are still limited to 4 engines for the season. Any new engine either has to be massively bulletproof from the start or gets introduced at the normal change times. That puts any such team 5 races behind, effectively.
True it may put them 5 races behind to swap the entire package but under the token system it pretty much tied their hands for far longer.

User avatar
SiLo
138
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

ironrose wrote:Andrew Benson Theory:

Right, now the dust has settled after that little pre-lunch lap-time excitement, let’s have a little think about what it might all mean. Sebastian Vettel set a 1:19.0 on ultras and a 19.3 on super-softs in the Ferrari. But a) it seems he may have deliberately backed off on both those laps; and b) he did a 19.3 on the softs - which should theoretically be at least a second slower than the ultras and 0.6-0.7secs off the supers. So let’s take that 19.3 as his benchmark.

Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton did a 19.3 on the ultra-softs. But we already know he can do at least a 19.84 on the softs from Tuesday.

In theory, that puts the Ferrari 0.5secs up on the Mercedes. However… Traditionally, Ferrari run less fuel in their cars in testing than Mercedes do. Of course it’s possible that they have changed that, but let’s assume for a moment that both teams are doing the same as normal.

Mercedes are widely believed to run about 60kg of fuel in their car in testing - that’s two seconds’ worth; Ferrari about 30kg - that’s one second.

So if that’s the case here, Vettel’s potential quickest lap on qualifying-level low fuel is an 18.3 on softs. Hamilton’s is a 17.8. A half-second advantage for the Mercedes. Which based on recent history, is probably about what would be expected. Perhaps that’s why Vettel said Ferrari have a lot of work to do...


Come on Gary Anderson ... Lets hear yours ...
That's a very sensible way to look at things, and good use of previous knowledge about the fuel levels they run. The Mercedes always looks heavy and lethargic during testing.

Gary Anderson will probably claim that Ferrari are a second quicker than everyone else somehow.
Felipe Baby!

User avatar
Shakeman
33
Joined: 21 Mar 2011, 13:31
Location: UK

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

DVB wrote:
You mean this one? https://f1.tfeed.net/live?hc_location=ufi
No, IIRC it was f1tests.info looking at my old bookmarks. It's dead now.

A great shame because it was the best accompaniment to testing to come along. Not sure why it closed.

I'm surprised the motorsport press have not replicated it.

User avatar
Xero
32
Joined: 28 Jan 2014, 15:11
Location: Moray, Scotland

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Wass85 wrote: That's what I'm saying, the soft looks like it could be the new medium with these tyres.
Rumour in paddock is the tyre compounds will change before Melbourne, with teams making a push for more degradation. Force India's technical director, Andrew Green, confirmed this yesterday. Possibly this might mean they ditch the Hard tyre, and push all other compounds up a grade, and maybe develop a new Ultra-Soft?

User avatar
DVB
11
Joined: 21 Aug 2015, 22:52

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

SiLo wrote:
CriXus wrote:From Sky Sports' "The F1 Gossip Column":
Have Ferrari found a loophole in the 2017 regulations to steal a march on their rivals?

'In recent years, Ferrari had been accused of having built a conservative car,' an article in Auto Motor und Sport states. 'Not this time.'

Comparing the sidepods on the SF70-H to their rivals' challengers, these appear much higher with several flow aids in front of them - but the German publication's Michael Schmidt writes that these side boxes, while following the FIA regulations, are attached to the real side pods which are hidden behind.

The FIA incorporated rules about what angle the side pods should be, and paragraph 3.8.8 says that that angle should be 75 degrees. This is purely to aid aesthetics - aerodynamicists would prefer the angle be 90 degrees to help air flow. All other teams' sidepods are 75 degrees - Red Bull technical chief Adrian Newey is said to be baffled by Ferrari's idea, while Mercedes are one of many teams who raised their suspension to clear a path for air to move under and around the sidepod.

Now, here's where Ferrari's loophole and possible advantage comes in. The carbon work in front of, and attached to the sidepods, is 75 degrees, thus following the rules, and this allowed Ferrari to make their actual side pods much smaller. It also allowed the Scuderia, under the guidance of technical chief Simone Resta, to make them at the desired 90 degree angle.
Anyone care to explain this in laymans terms? Are they talking about the radiators being at 75 degrees or something else?
Blue line mercedes : regulation intake at 75°
Blue line Ferrari : 'fake' side pod intake at 75°

Yellow line : actual Ferrari intake 90°

Image

*Link => https://ibb.co/mwW4bF
Image doenst seems to work...
Last edited by DVB on 09 Mar 2017, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
Everybody is a Ferrari fan.

User avatar
Xero
32
Joined: 28 Jan 2014, 15:11
Location: Moray, Scotland

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

McLaren have confirmed they won't be changing the engine this afternoon. Either there's nothing wrong with it, and it was an electrical issue that can be fixed, or they've ran out of parts and are finished for the day. I hope it's not the latter.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Wass85 wrote:Vettel looks on fire, I think Ferrari's pace is genuine. I hope for the sports sake they are a match for Mercedes. I still don't understand why they are doing a lot of running on the medium tyre though.
He does. I think the problem most are having with your posts, Wass85, is that you seem to be taking it for granted that this and that time are comparable or derived under a specific set of circumstances (e.g. little fuel, close to qualifying spec).

The truth is: We don't know.

But therein lies the fun in it. We are following this testing and trying to make some sense of it by analyzing the lap times, the sector times and the circumstance in which they took place. In addition, there are people here trying to link those specific times to on-board footage to methodically analyze how the car was driven during that lap.

Simply looking at a lap time without context is meaningless. To understand under what circumstance it took place, we need to look for example how many laps followed on that specific run. For example: if Hamilton did a 1:20.5 on a specific lap and then later continued to do 20 laps on that same tire without going into the pits, we know that the lap time was done with

1:20.5 = x + 20 laps (wherein x is the amount of fuel)

Knowing how much each kg of fuel corresponds to lap time is also more or less given too, but not exact science, certainly not with this year and new regulation, new cars etc. But it can give us a ballpark figure for analysis sake.

What we however don't know is engine mapping. A driver could be pushing 100% but with the engine in a slightly detuned mode. Might look sincere from the on-board footage (driver pushing, braking late, full throttle early) but that doesn't mean the car is driving at its full potential.

I think the point of this long post is, is that teams are testing all sorts of things at this test. It makes little sense for them to post quickest times just for the fun of it. Some of them might be doing it openly, either to try to impress Sponsors (or gain new ones), while others might be more interested in masking that performance. As an example: Imagine what would be if William had the quickest car. If they would post times no other team thought they could achieve, the other teams would be closely watching or analyzing their car in trying to understand what they are doing differently. Same applies to RedBull. They are going through great lengths to mask their advantage. Right now, some believe Ferrari is competitive, while RedBull is lacking. Everyone is expecting that RedBull to increase in (aero) complexity. Maybe they are just fooling us; Maybe, RedBull has build the most efficient car by going simple and by masking their pace, people aren't looking at them closely enough and rather concentrating on Ferrari?

There are many reasons. Many failed to understand why the RedBull was so dominant from 2010 to 2013. They remained so dominant because they were able to hide their advantage (the sum of what the car did well). Similarly 2014 to 2016. Everyone just assumes that Mercedes simply has the best PU. It does. But there is more to it, or else, Williams and ForceIndia (also Mercedes powered) would have been much better too. It's the sum of all parts.

It's why in 2013, RedBull rarely showed its full pace. The aim was to win, but win in the slowest possible way. I think Singapore 2013 was one of those very rare races when Vettel had none of it and blasted through the race with shocking pace (and possibly revealed what made that RedBull so quick).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

g70
g70
-2
Joined: 27 Feb 2017, 17:11
Location: Catania - Sicily - Italy

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Snatch wrote:I admit i am fan of Ferrari, but I really start to feel sorry for McLaren...all this trouble with this engine ...and i can't even imagine what the @#$%#%#$ those japanese engineers are doing. Alonso must be in Jedi mode.
+1

User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Xero wrote:McLaren have confirmed they won't be changing the engine this afternoon. Either there's nothing wrong with it, and it was an electrical issue that can be fixed, or they've ran out of parts and are finished for the day. I hope it's not the latter.
AMuS reports they are out of Engines if the Failure today was an Engine Failure with the next Unit arriving tonight.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

seezung wrote:Video's of the McLaren breaking down, sounds like somebody left a bloody wrench in there
https://twitter.com/OfficialMinis/statu ... 1230446593 https://twitter.com/raddie_cz/status/839806527326289923
Embarrassing!!

Broke down like an old Jalopy! :oops:
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

sAx
sAx
1
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 13:38

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

Wass85 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
Wass85 wrote:
Each driver has their own setup anyway. Of course Hamilton could have more fuel and a lower engine setting I just don't see why they would when they were doing one lap runs on relatively low fuel.
Could, would, should. Let's simply stop speculating about it. There's no point in it. Just stop.
Exactly so lets look at the facts, Bottas was quicker than Hamilton on slower tyres.

All will be revealed very shortly in Melbourne.
Are you trying to impress yourself with some new found wisdom, or just new to F1?
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

Follow me: http://twitter.com/#!/sAx247

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2017 F1 Pre-season testing February 27 - March 2/ March 7-10

Post

I'm trackside with ex-F1 driver and now TV expert Karun Chandhok this afternoon. Here are his first observations: "The Merc looks very predictable and predictably fast. The front end looks stiff - you can see it chattering over the bumps. But Valtteri has the confidence to drive on the same line lap after lap in a way I haven't seen anyone else do yet. Though I haven't seen the Ferrari or Red Bull run in anger yet..."