2021 Engine thread

[AJI]

Keep the 105kg fuel total and the 100kg/hr fuel flow rate. After that you can use any engine layout you like with any ers you can imagine. That's what I want to see.

Total fuel and rate of flow are a pretty good way of achieving balance of power as you're giving the engineers a fixed amount of energy (other than fuel suppliers finding efficiencies).

Yes, that is one way to introduce a BoP measure, but don't you think every single engineer will arrive at the same point?
If the aim is to win the race by producing as much power while using as little fuel as possible we could easily see an entire field of 3 cylinder turbo engines that don't rev above 8,000 RPM's...

[Nickel]

I honestly don't care how many cylinders the engine has or how high they Rev. And I'm not sure you'd see everyone use the same configuration. I think you'd see 4wd with regenerative braking at all wheels. I would love to see what would come out of a completely unrestricted format. Get the most energy out of this fuel, the end.

[dren]

I honestly don't care how many cylinders the engine has or how high they Rev. And I'm not sure you'd see everyone use the same configuration. I think you'd see 4wd with regenerative braking at all wheels. I would love to see what would come out of a completely unrestricted format. Get the most energy out of this fuel, the end.

I like it. This is what I would like to see as well.

[AMG.Tzan]

http://autogrip.gr/sinantisi-gia-neous- ... -tis-audi/
This a Greek site and it's saying that on Friday manufacturers will get together in Paris to discuss the 2021 engine formula! Audi, Ilmor and another unnamed Japanese manufacturer will be there!! I really hoped BMW would be there but nevermind...let's wait and see what they are up to!!

[wuzak]

http://autogrip.gr/sinantisi-gia-neous- ... -tis-audi/
This a Greek site and it's saying that on Friday manufacturers will get together in Paris to discuss the 2021 engine formula! Audi, Ilmor and another unnamed Japanese manufacturer will be there!! I really hoped BMW would be there but nevermind...let's wait and see what they are up to!!

VW and Cosworth were in the previous talks. They didn't join F1.

[3jawchuck]

Keep the 105kg fuel total and the 100kg/hr fuel flow rate. After that you can use any engine layout you like with any ers you can imagine. That's what I want to see.

Total fuel and rate of flow are a pretty good way of achieving balance of power as you're giving the engineers a fixed amount of energy (other than fuel suppliers finding efficiencies).

Yeah, I'd like to see this too. No engine type or fuel restrictions. Just a maximum energy available per race and rate.

[ME4ME]

I think a lot of fans dont care about the amount of fuel, or at what rate it is used. People just get annoyed or disappointed by fuel saving and/or lack of impressive sound.

ERS is also something that comes from the manufacturs rather than the fans. It doens't really add to the sport, on the contrary, it has created a void in performance between manufacturers and has driven up the costs of the current units.

I think the most simple way forward, if manufacturers can be convinced to give up "road relevance" to some extent, is a larger displacement V6 Turbo. The annual price should be capped at a sustainable number. Fuel flow rate and fuel budget limits can be left undefined, instead a maximum boost pressure can be put in place.

Ross Brawn is all about prioritising what the fans actually care about and keep the rest cheap and simple. I hope he can convince the manufacturers to cooperate.

[dren]

In that case, just expand Indycar to the world. It's much cheaper and plenty of passing.

[ME4ME]

In that case, just expand Indycar to the world. It's much cheaper and plenty of passing.

You think non-ERS V6 Turbo is unworthy of F1?

[roon]

This F1 being fans-first meme is nonsense. F1 is about money, elitism, cache, and as a bonus: well funded engineering. Fans are spectators, they are the passive participants in all this. The vocal few complaining about volume will remain regardless of what the formula becomes, because they think that the spectacle exists for them, when it's the other way around. Fans need the spectacle, and they pay for what it provides them. A lot of people like the current formula, but as with many things the contented rarely make as much noise as the perpetually unsatisfied.

If noises & crashes & guffawing are what people are looking for (and that's fine) there are many other series which provide that in droves. Drifting, for example, has some of the most creatively constructed vehicles in motorsport right now, in my opinion; along with King of Hammers type desert racing and that style of rock-bouncing hill-climb stuff they do in the Southern US (can't recall the name).

[63l8qrrfy6]

Unfortunately VW/Audi are in a 'bit' of a slump having just pulled out of any major form of motorsport so I don't really see them having the resources to even mock up some CAD models.

Cosworth have dropped the ball a long time ago - they literally have just a couple of capable engineers left, the rest have buggered off to merc.

Ilmor are way too small, same goes for AER.

I would love to see a large manufacturer team up with with the likes of Ricardo/Ilmor/Cosworth/AER/Mahle maybe even AVL but I am afraid that Honda's failure might just scare off any potential newcomers.

As for the engine formula - I don't think companies should really care, the engines have so little in common with the road-going ones that it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day it is just one big fat expensive advertising campaign so they should prioritize what the fans want to see rather than what manufacturers want to make.

I like Nickel's idea of allowing them to design whatever they fancy and just limit fuel rate and capacity. IMO the lack of diversity is one of the things killing the sport. Make it look like wacky races and people won't be that bothered anymore about that one team running circles around the competition.

[godlameroso]

What these engines do may not be directly applicable to road cars, but the things you learn building them absolutely does translate. For example, things you learn about packaging, heat management, material fatigue, material interaction, that's just the basic stuff. Principles you learn from experimenting about which developments help efficiency which don't, how far you can push the boundaries of turbo charging. Maybe you'll never see an MGU-H in a car, maybe you will, maybe batteries get cheap and light enough that hybrids make more sense. In a way developing these engines is sort of hedging your bets, ensuring your company can adapt to whichever technology becomes favored in the long run. Maybe we see some clever pre-chamber TJI stuff come to market when it's developed enough, that would actually have tangible benefits, or perhaps that can only work with electric super-chargers.

The tech in this series also improves R & D into things like electric motors, and inverters/transformers, making them lighter stronger more downsized, that alone has a lot of benefit given the electrification in a lot of cars.

[ME4ME]

This F1 being fans-first meme is nonsense. F1 is about money, elitism, cache, and as a bonus: well funded engineering. Fans are spectators, they are the passive participants in all this. The vocal few complaining about volume will remain regardless of what the formula becomes, because they think that the spectacle exists for them, when it's the other way around. Fans need the spectacle, and they pay for what it provides them. A lot of people like the current formula, but as with many things the contented rarely make as much noise as the perpetually unsatisfied.

If noises & crashes & guffawing are what people are looking for (and that's fine) there are many other series which provide that in droves. Drifting, for example, has some of the most creatively constructed vehicles in motorsport right now, in my opinion; along with King of Hammers type desert racing and that style of rock-bouncing hill-climb stuff they do in the Southern US (can't recall the name).

I think that's an incredibly ignorant view on the matter.

You are right that F1 is about money. The sole reason for Liberty Media to invest a multi billion dollar sum to buy the sport is to make a profit. So it's in the owners interest to attract paying fans. Thus, fans most be convinced to pay and good value must be offered for their money.

Liberty Media must make F1 what fans want to pay for. I think it's fairly well estabilshed that fans want good racing, which is a result of close competition, which is a result of similar performance and the PU is a part of that. You cannot ignore the oppurtunity of improvement there is in 2021.

[roon]

At the end of the day it is just one big fat expensive advertising campaign so they should prioritize what the fans want to see rather than what manufacturers want to make.

I think advertising is just an excuse people use to blow money in motorsport. The effectiveness of advertising is ultimately hard to verify. There are genuinely people who want to compete, gamble, and build race vehicles. They get their funding to do this by many means. One of them being the advertising ploy.

[roon]

This F1 being fans-first meme is nonsense. F1 is about money, elitism, cache, and as a bonus: well funded engineering. Fans are spectators, they are the passive participants in all this. The vocal few complaining about volume will remain regardless of what the formula becomes, because they think that the spectacle exists for them, when it's the other way around. Fans need the spectacle, and they pay for what it provides them. A lot of people like the current formula, but as with many things the contented rarely make as much noise as the perpetually unsatisfied.

If noises & crashes & guffawing are what people are looking for (and that's fine) there are many other series which provide that in droves. Drifting, for example, has some of the most creatively constructed vehicles in motorsport right now, in my opinion; along with King of Hammers type desert racing and that style of rock-bouncing hill-climb stuff they do in the Southern US (can't recall the name).

I think that's an incredibly ignorant view on the matter.

You are right that F1 is about money. The sole reason for Liberty Media to invest a multi billion dollar sum to buy the sport is to make a profit. So it's in the owners interest to attract paying fans. Thus, fans most be convinced to pay and good value must be offered for their money.

Liberty Media must make F1 what fans want to pay for. I think it's fairly well estabilshed that fans want good racing, which is a result of close competition, which is a result of similar performance and the PU is a part of that. You cannot ignore the oppurtunity of improvement there is in 2021.

No, fans will pay for the most inane garbage you can imagine. As I said, they need it. Appealing to some abstraction called "the fans" is a downward spiral into lowest common denominator appeal. Either way they go, keep doing their own thing or become Dancing With The Cars, people are gonna blow money on it.

"Opportunities for improvement" is vague and subjective. Many are content as-is. If F1 stays aloof, out-of-touch or insular then that would be truer to its roots.