Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[amho]

They didn't have to get TJI to work in the last 2 years, it's a new concept for them, but once they get it, there will be a massive step forward.

We have been waiting for this massive step forward since 2015 now. Makes me wonder if it's ever gonna come.

Honda was away from f1 for 6 years (2009 -2014) while others were continueously developing their engines so expecting them to come f1 and bring race winning engine is wrong especially with token limitation in 2015 and 2016 and things get worse when Honda supplies just a single team.

[godlameroso]

Can someone explain or theorise in simple terms why a single cyclinder would work well, but three or six do not ? Seems quite odd intuitively.

Because a six cylinder or 3 cylinder has to share space with other cylinders. So they affect one another even though they're separated, they sit in the same material. 6x the combustions 6x the pressure waves and harmonics that come with them.

If Honda did use a TJI variant they can't seem to get the most out of it with 6 cylinders as easily as they could from a single cylinder. To fix it either takes tweaking the formula(engine mapping), and the fuel, and of course the hardware to give you the control you are looking for. Or for McLaren to redesign things on their end.

[dren]

They share the same exhaust and intake even though they are firing at different times.

[PlatinumZealot]

https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848205869481209856
https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848206508428902400
https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848206241268551680
https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848207054812598272
https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848207328524369920

I suggest dont take Metin serious. He is a biased F1 analyst that doesnt know anything about F1 tech. I dont think that he have any connections to Honda to make these claims. He probably heard/read that somewhere or made that up.

He copied ot from here and did a very poor job at that.

[luke352]

Can someone explain or theorise in simple terms why a single cyclinder would work well, but three or six do not ? Seems quite odd intuitively.

Because a six cylinder or 3 cylinder has to share space with other cylinders. So they affect one another even though they're separated, they sit in the same material. 6x the combustions 6x the pressure waves and harmonics that come with them.

If Honda did use a TJI variant they can't seem to get the most out of it with 6 cylinders as easily as they could from a single cylinder. To fix it either takes tweaking the formula(engine mapping), and the fuel, and of course the hardware to give you the control you are looking for. Or for McLaren to redesign things on their end.

The point Hasegawa was getting at is that a V6 is essentially two inline 3cyl engines. Especially if you use a split intake manifold and twin scroll turbo of which I imagine they do. As a result the exhaust and inlet pulses and harmonics due to the 3cyls 120deg seperation in the cycles have very little or no overlap meaning the exhaust pulse of one cylinder and technically shouldn't impact the other cylinders on that bank. This is different to a 4cyl or v8 where the cyclinders in each bank will interact with each other due to overlap in the cycles. This means in a 4cylinder or v8 you have to put much more emphasis on either minimising or trying to make the pulses work with each other in a useful way. The result is that Honda didn't think they would have too many issues going from single cylinder to 3cyl/V6 as technically they shouldn't have but they have.

Vibration is vibration, but from what I've read it doesn't sound like the vibration is causing issues with their combustion. The vibration is a result of the detonation issues and that is manifesting as resonance issue when combined with the gearbox and the whole thing is shaking the car apart. Solve the detonation issues and the resonance issue should go away.

[PlatinumZealot]

Can someone explain or theorise in simple terms why a single cyclinder would work well, but three or six do not ? Seems quite odd intuitively.

Hasegawa said the exhaust pulse affected the other cylinders more than they expected. He implied that in common engine design knowledge it is expected that pulse effects, the exhaust pressure changes of one cylinder affecting another - really begin to be a large factor when dealing with four cylinders or more especially when naturally aspirated - but it took them by surpise when the test engine bank showed these interferance effects to be large with even though it was just three cylinder turbo.

So obviously while they were developing from the one cylinder model they did not properly account for interference effects from the other cylinders because they thought they did not need to due to the engine being a V6 turbo. They were wrong.

I mean there is nothing to worry about really. That was obviously in early stage development of their TJI and they can fix it that they know the problem. The whole is thing is saying that the TJI is very sensitive to transients of physical state and chemical state that arize from interferences from other cylinders.

[bigblue]

Aha, of course, makes sense. I guess the solution could involve exhaust design as well as perhaps revising combustion a bit ? Oh, and maybe valve timing. Actually could be a lot of interlinked things, this engine-design business is probably quite tricky

[etusch]

I am looking forward to see performans of the engine when these issues solved.

[damager21]

Why did we not come across engine problem at Australia? Did they chose not to use TJI till all the problems are resolved?

[glenntws]

Why did we not come across engine problem at Australia? Did they chose not to use TJI till all the problems are resolved?

As I said, they probably ran richer than planned to improve the pre-chamber jet quality or used a head without TJI.

[KingHamilton01]

im curious how much time do we think Honda will gain once they have sorted out there issues? Will it be a knock on effect with the TJI? as in will the performance and Fuel consumption efficiency improve? I am not an expert just curious to see if anyone can gauge what McLaren can gain in terms of laptime.

[etusch]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma ... doors/amp/

Here an interesting article

[diffuser]

im curious how much time do we think Honda will gain once they have sorted out there issues? Will it be a knock on effect with the TJI? as in will the performance and Fuel consumption efficiency improve? I am not an expert just curious to see if anyone can gauge what McLaren can gain in terms of laptime.

In my opinion,it is impossible to say with any accuracy. More power allows you to run more downforce which makes the chassis Perform better. It may also bring to forefront deficiencies in the chassis which prevent you from taking advantage of all that extra power as quickly as one would like and in as many areas around the track you'd like.

[mrluke]

im curious how much time do we think Honda will gain once they have sorted out there issues? Will it be a knock on effect with the TJI? as in will the performance and Fuel consumption efficiency improve? I am not an expert just curious to see if anyone can gauge what McLaren can gain in terms of laptime.

In my opinion,it is impossible to say with any accuracy. More power allows you to run more downforce which makes the chassis Perform better. It may also bring to forefront deficiencies in the chassis which prevent you from taking advantage of all that extra power as quickly as one would like and in as many areas around the track you'd like.

I dont think we will see Mclaren running any extra downforce, they appear on face value to be running similar drag levels to the other teams.

The Honda engine might be a little bit down on where it finished last year but it isnt 3 seconds off the pace. I wouldn't expect to see that much improvement in the Mclaren lap times due to Honda improvements, I would be surprised if they are losing a second a lap (qualy) due to the PU.

I also haven't seen any claims that the vibrations are caused by det. If this was the case I think we would be seeing engines fail along time before we get to any worries about resonance in the gearbox.

[63l8qrrfy6]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsma ... doors/amp/

Here an interesting article

what does that have to do with anything ?
well I guess the holographic display might come in handy when the car breaks down on the track and the marshals are slow to turn up..