What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Thanks dumrick, nice article, I agree with Mauro and Luca.
FIA wants to introduce KERS just for what its name sounds: GREEN, but it will be another accesory like they say.

Everyone is doing everything wrong here. FIA wanna freeze all to get down costs, they dont understand a thing about technical side, manufacturers have money, but what they want is low prize promotion, so they agree with the freezing, at the end we get, like they said, an expensive F3.

I would like to see manufacturers going away, private teams coming back to use their heads to use the money and build cars.

Maybe the only reason I still watch F1 is because its very very fast, noisy and has more TV coverage than other series. Rally is getting worse everyday, its like F1 from 2000 to 2004. LeMans has good cars, but 40.000 categories that run the same race and you cant follow it, here there is no TV coverage, you dont even know the teams beyond Audi or Peugeot. The rest? DTM is good, but far away from 80´s and early 90´s, I cant watch any American series, they are made for Americans, (who likes sports where you can rest 5 minutes every 15 minutes, so you can go to the toilet and buy a hotdog and a beer -the reason why they dont like "soccer"- they cant keep attention for more than 15 minutes) too much yellow flags and safety car, then commercials come in and there is when I got asleep or change channel, when I remember I come back and half race passed away.

NOTE: please American friends dont get mad for my comment, just notice all American sports are "action-brake-action", like American Football, Baseball or NASCAR. In F1 or "soccer" you have 2 continuous hours where you cant turn your head (sports not loved by the majority in the US).
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Belatti wrote:Thanks dumrick, nice article, I agree with Mauro and Luca.
FIA wants to introduce KERS just for what its name sounds: GREEN, but it will be another accesory like they say.

Everyone is doing everything wrong here. FIA wanna freeze all to get down costs, they dont understand a thing about technical side, manufacturers have money, but what they want is low prize promotion, so they agree with the freezing, at the end we get, like they said, an expensive F3.

I would like to see manufacturers going away, private teams coming back to use their heads to use the money and build cars.

Maybe the only reason I still watch F1 is because its very very fast, noisy and has more TV coverage than other series. Rally is getting worse everyday, its like F1 from 2000 to 2004. LeMans has good cars, but 40.000 categories that run the same race and you cant follow it, here there is no TV coverage, you dont even know the teams beyond Audi or Peugeot. The rest? DTM is good, but far away from 80´s and early 90´s, I cant watch any American series, they are made for Americans, (who likes sports where you can rest 5 minutes every 15 minutes, so you can go to the toilet and buy a hotdog and a beer -the reason why they dont like "soccer"- they cant keep attention for more than 15 minutes) too much yellow flags and safety car, then commercials come in and there is when I got asleep or change channel, when I remember I come back and half race passed away.

NOTE: please American friends dont get mad for my comment, just notice all American sports are "action-brake-action", like American Football, Baseball or NASCAR. In F1 or "soccer" you have 2 continuous hours where you cant turn your head (sports not loved by the majority in the US).
I guess that you don't like having strategy in your sports? Or plays that are much more precice and adaptive than "You go that way, and I'll kick it to you." type sports? HAHAHA! I wish that you could have seen my highschool football playbook. 11 different formations, 45 plays, and receiver routes as well as blocking assignments that change depending which defense the other team lines up in, one of 6 most popular defenses anyways. It takes ALOT of time to get these things right, and there is MUCH more intricacy to an American football play than a European football play.

But then again, I hate American Pro football because none of the Owners, Coaches or players give a crap about the game, all they care about is money, and bragging rights (or Resume Padding if you want to be nice about it!).


To the topic;

F1 should lead the way in new energy production/recovery, but the governing body needs to get the HELL out of the way of the brilliance of the talent that is embedded in the teams.

It feels like the bright light that is the engineering minds of F1 are used for nothing more than The Bernie and Max Shadow Puppet Show! Since they constantly use their "hands" to block that brilliant light from ever reaching the screen.

But whatever, right?

Chris

West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Conceptual... maybe you should look at LaDanian Tomlinson...

Belatti... an American, or anybody in general, does not need to watch TV for two straight hours to see Ferrari win every other week. After 2005 I missed a lot of races and didn't really care about watching them on replay or whatever. With the ALMS the fans can relate to the cars a lot more than an open-wheel racer, even if they are Porsches and Ferraris.

For the main topic... the "green" idea should also apply to logistics.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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For F1 to go green, the teams should ditch the cars and the drivers should run on foot, while the mechanics grow alfalfa in the infield.
Ciro

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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West, you are right, F1 is limited to 2 or 3 winning teams per decade. That sucks.

Chris, I like strategy, in fact, is an aspect I like in F1 (after all not everything is overpassing). I know strategy in American Football is difficult to design and play in field and thats cool.

But I was trying to point out that those games are formed in such way that you can have 5 minutes to relax, a pause and then they continue. Thats good cause I have heard that humans can have max. 15-20 minutes of concentration and then attention looses focus. But that doesn´t seem to happen to me with motorsport, if I stop 2 minutes, I instantly get bored and began doing another thing. Just cant stand a safety car or a formation change in football.

You have to recognize that sports there are different, even motorsports, and with different I don´t mean worse or better, just different.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Each crowd member of each GP should be sitting upon a stationary bike that when pedalled helps charge an enormous battery bank that the teams use to charge each car at each pit.

This way the crowd could would intregral to the race, and no gas would need be burned or consumed off site to produce power.

And by positing this, I may learn not to post crazy ideas here, while drinking.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Giblet, what were you thinking? Haven't you realized that the thermal efficiency of a crowd is around 0.6%? If you take in account the amount of CO2 expelled when you make the hamburgers that the crowd has to eat to produce the energy to charge the generators, then we're talking global warming increase of perhaps 1 or 2 degrees along the next few races. I propose to use nano-crowds, which are much more efficient, specially when drinking beer (they use nano-glasses, so a keg lasts forever). Is that or using perpetuum movement engines for the cars, which produce more energy that they consume. Unfortunately I've heard the rules forbid this kind of engines, because of some moron that invented entropy.
Ciro

West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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I'm drunk too Giblet so here are my thoughts.

I still stand by my logistics suggestion. Use greener ways to transport the vehicles; in general we should be promoting green in public transportation. I don't know about it in Europe but it hasn't been talked about here. Maybe we should build F1 cars that can drive themselves from GP to GP then maybe transport them to the non-Euro races.

Use production engines - let the somewhat informed public know that the engines they have in their cars are the same that are powering F1 vehicles. That would bring F1-street connections a little closer to home, because quite frankly I don't see the connection at all if any. Honda would be the closest since they tend to emphasize small displacement/high HP powerplants.

More green awareness advertising or corporate events. Are there any?


F1 is the opposite of green; the Honda livery of last year was ridiculed as being somewhat as ironic even though that was not their message.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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I think that the cars need to adopt some sort of Perendev Alternator (I have CAD drawings that I've done) and use the breaking energy to increase the RPM of the motor, thus producing more energy for the exit of the corner...


Then when the car pits for tyres, it could discharge through the grounding straps into a battery bank and power the pit stall...

Or, we can watch the barbaric V8's for another 10 years...

Chris

yzfr7
yzfr7
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Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 12:20

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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I like f1 because it still means for me the ultmost in technology, be it automotive, materials, electronics... This because I started watching f1 for real in early 90's, when you would see a road car ad that said 'this was tested in a f1 car' - variable camshaft, active suspension, traction control and others.
Many years of crazy regulations almost killed this image. So when this 'green f1' talk started just when hybrids and electric cars are starting to come in serious fashion, then Toyota saying they would race a hybrid at Le Mans, Mitsubishi too had all electric rally Lancer (MIEV I think), then I believed f1 could be the testbed for all this technology, be the source of new things again.
But c'mon, Max ideas are completely the opposite, he wants to put into f1 existing technology. Just check the words of Luca Marmorini, and he is not alone. And the same with standard ECU.
I support the idea of f1 going "green", in the sense that it should develop more efficient technologies.
One of the greatest ideas for this is to stablish a limit of fuel per race weekend. It is not my idea and it is not new. Prototypes racing was like this in the past (can't tell exactly when, you help me here), you could race which engine you wanted, as long it would use X liters during the race, no matter if it's v8, boxer 12, turbo, rotary. It could be made a long-term plan: take the average that teams are doing today and reduce the comsumption, say, 5% a year. MotoGP did this a couple of years ago when it reduced the tank size (as they can't refuel) by 5 liters. Isn't something like this that USA regulations are trying to do, fix average MPG of their cars at 30 something? Why not f1?
It is the same with carbon emissions standards. Little by little, emissions today are less than 10% of it was when the first standards came. This is technology, this is efficiency. If a 500hp road car can fit in EURO5, why not f1? It is not green as in Green Peace standards, but for me it is good enough.
I see this as technology development, and I see this as pure f1 core. But then MAx comes and say 'freeze everything for ten years'. The only way f1 will go with freezing technology is back. Then ten years from now it will be completely archaic cars, almost vintage racing. And don't come with cost-cutting, no will save money with one engine/year thing, they will just spend 12x more developing an engine that will last that much.
All in all, i would like to see a f1 developing technology to do more than 1 liter/km - for me this is technology and this is f1.
pax

yzfr7
yzfr7
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Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 12:20

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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more than 1 km/liter!
pax

majicmeow
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Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 07:03

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Hybrids are out as far as "green F1"... hybrids are only a stepping stone towards greater efficiency in the future. Not to mention the cost (environmentally) to produce hybrid components is larger than the fuel savings the hybrid brings.

The FIA must surely realize that motor sports of a caliber like Formula 1 and fuel economy/efficiency cannot go hand in hand.

If anything, F1 teams should be restricted as to how they build, produce and transport their cars. Have an environmental standard that every team has to adhere to. I mean really, what pollutes more... an F1 car or the 3-6 transport carriers each team brings to the event that travel tens of thousands of miles each?

Have a set of rules in place the limit team waste, C02 emissions from transport trucks, in plant recycling, wasted tires (put a stricter or modified tire limit back in place). If you have a crash where the chassis is left ruined, the team should be required to recycle a minimum % of that chassis. The same goes for engines. If you blow an engine, melt that baby down and use it in the next one.

Building a fuel efficient road car has been done. The companies that are involved in such tasks are already light years ahead of where F1 is in that respect. Every car manufacturer in the world knows the secret to a "green car", they just don't build them because people all want Range Rovers and Humvees.

I believe whole heartedly that a "green F1" exists at the factory and logistics level. Show the rest of the world that such a product can be produced "greener" than a Prius, greener than a Civic. Make the manufacturers step up to the plate in that respect.

The whole idea of limiting cost and producing a "green F1" are also mutually exclusive. If there is to be a gain in one area and still maintain F1 as the premier motor sport, you can only choose one. Developing these technologies is by its nature expensive. Let the teams spend as much as they want on the "green" part as long as they meet a standardized specification.

My 2¢

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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majicmeow wrote:Hybrids are out as far as "green F1"... hybrids are only a stepping stone towards greater efficiency in the future. Not to mention the cost (environmentally) to produce hybrid components is larger than the fuel savings the hybrid brings.

The FIA must surely realize that motor sports of a caliber like Formula 1 and fuel economy/efficiency cannot go hand in hand.

If anything, F1 teams should be restricted as to how they build, produce and transport their cars. Have an environmental standard that every team has to adhere to. I mean really, what pollutes more... an F1 car or the 3-6 transport carriers each team brings to the event that travel tens of thousands of miles each?

Have a set of rules in place the limit team waste, C02 emissions from transport trucks, in plant recycling, wasted tires (put a stricter or modified tire limit back in place). If you have a crash where the chassis is left ruined, the team should be required to recycle a minimum % of that chassis. The same goes for engines. If you blow an engine, melt that baby down and use it in the next one.

Building a fuel efficient road car has been done. The companies that are involved in such tasks are already light years ahead of where F1 is in that respect. Every car manufacturer in the world knows the secret to a "green car", they just don't build them because people all want Range Rovers and Humvees.

I believe whole heartedly that a "green F1" exists at the factory and logistics level. Show the rest of the world that such a product can be produced "greener" than a Prius, greener than a Civic. Make the manufacturers step up to the plate in that respect.

The whole idea of limiting cost and producing a "green F1" are also mutually exclusive. If there is to be a gain in one area and still maintain F1 as the premier motor sport, you can only choose one. Developing these technologies is by its nature expensive. Let the teams spend as much as they want on the "green" part as long as they meet a standardized specification.

My 2¢
I agree with alot of what you are saying, and I feel you are correct in the restrictions of transports and the bio-economy of the production plants.

Where I disagree is that there is no room in F1 for revolutionary technology development. Anyone can be good at a game that has easy rules. Only TOP talent can excell in a game that has extraordinarily difficult ones.

I believe that the FIA should meet with the manufacturers and the team owners and have a brain storming session as to where automotive technology needs to head with our current energy/emissions crisis, and set the rules very strictly with the goal as the determining factor, not the subjective drama coordination that currently sets the goals.

If the teams knew that the 2010 rules stated:

1. All cars get 150L of fuel (biodiesel, ethanol, whatever) per weekend, and will decrease by 10L every year.
2. All cars must fit inside a box that is x,y,z.
3. All cars must pass strict safety requirements.
4. All materials must cost less per ounce than Gold.
5. Anything that does not directly or indirectly violate these rules is inherently legal.

Then there would be 24 cars on the grid in Melbourne ready to compete. In 15 years when the teams get ZERO fuel per weekend, there will STILL be 24 cars on grid and ready to compete... Understand what I'm getting at?

Set the goals, and allow the talent that the teams employ to overcome these obstacles. Limiting testing, mandatory tyre usage, salary caps, durable drivetrains, and other nonsensical subjective rules need to be removed.

There can be no forward advancement without forward thinking, and integrated planning. Until then, the image of F1 will be continuously tarnished, and inevitably looked down upon as how NOT to run a racing series.

My $.02

Chris

majicmeow
majicmeow
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Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 07:03

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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good points man ;)

I particularly like the "fuel limit" that you suggested.

good call =D>

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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majicmeow wrote: The FIA must surely realize that motor sports of a caliber like Formula 1 and fuel economy/efficiency cannot go hand in hand.
:?:
Aaahhhh... so thats why mid 80´s Renaults turbo engines had a hard time finishing races, huh?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna