What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Conceptual
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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majicmeow wrote:good points man ;)

I particularly like the "fuel limit" that you suggested.

good call =D>
Thanks!

I am all about the FIA getting the hell out of the way of technological advancement.

That is why Pat Symonds needs to become the next FIA president, and SOON!

Chris

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checkered
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Conceptual wrote:In 15 years when the teams get ZERO fuel per weekend, there will STILL be 24 cars on grid and ready to compete... Understand what I'm getting at?
Why, yes I absolutely

do understand. In a couple of decades the amount of people fervently believing that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply will have reached a critical mass, substituting the previous consensus on reality with their own and morphing the Universe into a Lala Land where it is not imperative for a F1 car to actually move. People will just gather around to admire the fanciful (non)vehicles and listen to incredible tales detailing their imaginative feats. One is powered by the depth of yellow in dandelions, the other excels by being exponentially attracted to the ascending pitch in a lark's song, the third can be recycled into gentle lovers' whispers and reconstituted by distilling the chills that go down one's spine.

Surely this is the rationale behind imposing fuel limitations! But wait a minute, there's already a place that accommodates this - it's called Second Life. Still lacking a bit in some departments compared to our First Life interface, but it'll catch up eventually. In the mean time, I suppose one should just appreciate the sentiment and be none too picky about rationales.

Conceptual
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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checkered wrote:
Conceptual wrote:In 15 years when the teams get ZERO fuel per weekend, there will STILL be 24 cars on grid and ready to compete... Understand what I'm getting at?
Why, yes I absolutely

do understand. In a couple of decades the amount of people fervently believing that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply will have reached a critical mass, substituting the previous consensus on reality with their own and morphing the Universe into a Lala Land where it is not imperative for a F1 car to actually move. People will just gather around to admire the fanciful (non)vehicles and listen to incredible tales detailing their imaginative feats. One is powered by the depth of yellow in dandelions, the other excels by being exponentially attracted to the ascending pitch in a lark's song, the third can be recycled into gentle lovers' whispers and reconstituted by distilling the chills that go down one's spine.

Surely this is the rationale behind imposing fuel limitations! But wait a minute, there's already a place that accommodates this - it's called Second Life. Still lacking a bit in some departments compared to our First Life interface, but it'll catch up eventually. In the mean time, I suppose one should just appreciate the sentiment and be none too picky about rationales.
I sense some sarcasm there friend. Remember that sarcasm is nothing but anger turned inward... :wink:

I dont see why the battery technology 15 years from now wouldnt be able to run a race distance without recharging, especially with the KERS capabilities as well as simple things like a Perendev Alternator that could be spun under breaking to charge the battery. Remember, the Perendev is NOT perpetual, but it does spin for a really long time. I have been working on a way to use it like a windmill generator and produce 240v 3 phase electricity. Even if you had to use the current starters to spin it up to 10000RPM, it can maintain 5000+ RPM for several minutes. And then under breaking the rectifier reversed and used the motors driving the car to generate electricity, thus reversing the flow and increasing the RPM of the Perendev to 10000RPM once again. (This is a common problem for windmills that would actually work for benefit here.)

I think this could be done today with capacitors, like Toyota's setup in the Supra. It just comes down to money to build a prototype at that point, no?

Chris

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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Conceptual wrote:I sense some sarcasm there friend. Remember that sarcasm is nothing but anger turned inward... :wink:
Your choice of

words, not mine. We may not have much in this life, but our perceptions are our own. This being a messageboard environment, it is good to remember that any and all comments exist in a wider sphere regardless of what may prompt us to contribute them. The individual styles of communication are perhaps cognitively superficial but when applied with care and consideration rarely superfluous. Reading is an art equal to writing.

On the subject of piling words and the wider ramifications of that, introducing acute and constant discontinuities certainly is a means to and end, too bad the "end" in question is that of a meaningful discussion. It's a bit like the "Perendev" used as a magneto-kinetic capacitor; the maximum energy product (MGOe) is about 1/20 to 1/25 of the energy investment in creating and operating the device - that tends to wind it down pretty quickly, for good.

To put my previous message in the clearest of terms, just in case, it was a critique of a post that made absolute minced meat of the rationale behind introducing fuel (flow/energy) limitations. If you consider them worthwhile enough to promote, one could hardly be blamed for expecting that such support was also based on some grasp of the matter and/or the capability to convey that.

Lacking that, a casual observer might dismiss the concept. It's about respecting issues, and this one - for all my shortcomings - I feel strongly about. Strongly enough to altogether forgo other considerations.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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There is a difference between sarcasm and a joke. A joke is when you make it, sarcasm is when your post is the subject of the joke. :)

Now, how much better should be the batteries?

Gasoline has an energy density of 47 MJoules/kg. The best batteries have an energy density of 5 Mjoules/Kg. So, you need batteries ten times lighter. This is hard to achieve without a major breaktrough.

About the Perendev machine: how does it work? I mean, where does it get the energy to work?
Ciro

Conceptual
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Ciro Pabón wrote:There is a difference between sarcasm and a joke. A joke is when you make it, sarcasm is when your post is the subject of the joke. :)

Now, how much better should be the batteries?

Gasoline has an energy density of 47 MJoules/kg. The best batteries have an energy density of 5 Mjoules/Kg. So, you need batteries ten times lighter. This is hard to achieve without a major breaktrough.

About the Perendev machine: how does it work? I mean, where does it get the energy to work?
Search for perendev on YouTube.

Carlos
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Conceptual
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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What about LiPo batteries?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-io ... er_battery

And Carlos, I have some CAD work done on the Perendev... I might even have a link to a render of the internals...

http://picasaweb.google.com/CKnopp/Conc ... 1676073746

I don't know how well that link works, but I'm going to put all of my concept work in there from now on.

Now if only I could get a .dwg of a current F1 nosecone/wing I can do some stuff that manchild was talking about on another thread...

EDIT: And who could forget this guy: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

Chris

Carlos
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Ciro - The Perendev is a motor that's main power source are magnets The idea doesn't conform to my understanding of physics. Here is a recent survey of magnet motors.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnet_Motors

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Carlos, Conceptual, I have read about the Perendev motor and I have seen the video in YouTube. Its inventor alleges he can create energy from nothing and thus is a perpetual movement machine. This kind of machine has been proposed once and again in the last 150 years. For a good list of perpetual machines I strongly recommend this page: Donald Simanek's pages - The Museum of Unworkable Devices

It's interesting how the same ideas has been put forward once and again, specially for flotating bellows, magnets around a wheel and unbalanced wheels.

Some examples of perpetual motion machines:

Magnets around magnets (Perendev style): the magnets at the center attract or repel the magnets around them, which creates an "unbalanced" wheel that has to move
Image
Answer and discussion that explains why it doesn't work (try to work it for yourself!)

Bellows under water that a weight opens
Image
Answer and discussion

The ICW generator: a flotation device that has enough buoyancy to lift a couple of balls
Image
Discussion

You should check for yourselves the incredibly varied ideas: the reverse osmosis machine, the sling accelerator, the Simanek's Silly Slinky Device whose image is here and that works using a Slinky (TM) toy:

Image

Now, there are some engines that work using magnets or corona discharge, the first one invented by Franklin, the last by Tesla and others. They use magnets to move a wheel, but require a power source. Tesla hoped to harness the power of ionization in atmosphere, but concluded it was not economically feasible.

Nonetheless, that hasn't discouraged inventors, who try to circumvent Boltzmann laws of entropy. Here you have another stumper:

This "Gyrogenerator", a gyroscope, rotates around it axis because the earth rotates around it. :)
Image

The answer to any machine that claims over 100% efficiency is the equation in Boltzmann's grave: S = k * log W

My advice: when analyzing a perpetual motion machine, do not look at the forces, look for the "energy path".

For example, the right side of the Slinky machine weights twice what the left side does (force analysis). However, the energy required to push up every link of the Slinky in the left side is twice the energy required to pull down the links of the right side, because you have to push them up twice the height, so the machine is balanced and does not move.

Another example: the rotating earth machine has to be "decoupled" from Earth by making it turn like a gyroscope. Guess what: the amount of energy you need to decouple it, is the same energy you get back when it rotates back "against" the Earth, minus the friction losses.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 28 Feb 2008, 16:14, edited 5 times in total.
Ciro

Carlos
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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Ciro. I agree with you. These machines are not possible and do not conform to my understanding of physics. There is no free energy,the Laws of Motion and the Laws of Thermodynamics cannot be overturned.

SoundMan
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Re: What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought

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freedom_honda wrote:What should Formula One do to go green? Express your thought
i think a return to The Green Hell would be a good start. \:D/