Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

[dave kumar]

It's preseason and a good time to chew over some general ideas to improve F1. I think all motor racing fans want to see close wheel to wheel racing. I don't see any proposals that are going to acheive this in the next couple of years in F1.

What ideas are out there for improving the ability of cars to overtake each other on the track? We have heard about the research funded by some of the teams, that is looking in to aerodynamic changes that could improve the ability of cars to follow each other through fast corners but I haven't heard anything recently. The FIA highlighted the possibility of a radical twin rear wing design, one over each wheel, to reduce the turbulent air in a car's wake. Has this idea died a death?

I suspect there is a limit to the amount of downforce that can be generated by one car closely following another purely by trying to smooth the flow off the back of the leading car. This limit must in a large part be due to the fact that the lead car is generating downforce for itself and therefore by the time the air reaches the following car it has already done a large amount of work, making it harder to generate additional downforce. Does anyone have a better explanation of this effect that is accessible to us lay-people, it would be appreciated! Anyway what I'm trying to say is that while F1 cars generate such a large percentage of their grip through downforce, no amount of smoothing of the exiting airflow will help cars follow closely through fast corners.

Okay, we all know that the FIA should bring back wide slicks and reduce the influence of aero packages to redress the balance of mechanical grip to aero (CHAMP cars are trying this for 2007, did it work? - http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News ... p?ID=10684). But if F1 cars are to remain the exotic looking machines we so love then aerodynamics will always have their place and the following car will always find it difficult to line itself up for that pass at the next corner. I propose some measure to counter this disadvantage.

I'm not sure my proposal is technically feasible but bear with me, I think it has some attractive qualities (if they can create self healing rubber then there is some hope - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7254939.stm). At present the track rubbers in as the race progresses, improving grip on the racing line. What if (okay a big if, I did warn you) the tyres laid down a volatile compound that dramatically improves grip on the track for a few seconds before evaporating. The driver in front would then have to put in some hot laps to build a gap to the driver behind to break the advantage the other has in following closely. If he can't he will present overtaking opportunities and if overtaken the positions will be reversed and the onus will be on the new leader to try and defend his position. We could even have a situation where cars further down the track benefit from all the cars in front laying down this volatile compound, allowing them to keep pace with the front runners for longer and not produce such a disjointed field early on in the race. It would certainly make back markers less of a problem!

I'm not suggesting that we should turn racing on its head. The lead driver has the advantage of track position, is still creating an aerodynamic penalty for the car close behind, but we could 'tune' the boost in mechanical grip given by this volatile compound being laid on the track, to at least partially cancel out the aerodynamic penalty. I feel quite strongly that we shouldn't lose touch with the pure racing skills seen in F1. I think this kind of proposal is better than push and pass or allowing the driver to dial in extra front wing a maximum of twice a lap (can you imagine the controversies that would generate - was he crossing the line, which lap does it count towards!). We want something that is organic to the racing experience. Something that drivers can learn to exploit and the spectators can intuitively grasp, like changing track conditions, to make the best drivers stand out from the rest.

Let's leave aside the scientific improbability of such a tyre compound. I want to know if it was possible what do you think the effect on the racing would be? Are there any more radical ideas out there for acheiving the same goal - more overtaking but in the racing spirit, no push and pass. We want the best driver/car combination to win.

Thanks to Tomba and the rest of the contributors to this board. I have enjoyed reading your posts for the last few months. Keep up the good work.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, that's a possibility. Here is a sample of what you get if you look for "improve overtaking" in this forum:

Franework For Discussion - F1 2011 Aero Regs
How to make F1 more competitive
max wants to bring back overtaking
Can downforce be reduced?
Downforce solution?
Are CDG wings useless?
Brakes in F1 - Boring?.... perhaps not!
FIA - Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) Wing

I'll try to sum up, quickly. If I forget something I'm sure it will be added to the list by other members (as I added freely my own thoughts). In italics you find what has been proposed in published future regulations for 2009, 2011 or that has been proposed by the "Overtaking Technical Group" that exists at FIA:

Aerodynamics

• Mandatory downforce reduction (50% downforce reduction from 2006 levels proposed for 2009, and for 2011 again)
  Reshaping of front wing to be less sensitive (proposed for 2009).
  Reshaping of diffuser/rear wing for less coupling between them (proposed for 2009)
  Increase in diffuser size to allow for limited ground effect and minimize wing load (proposed for 2009)
  Banning some appendices that are too sensitive (proposed for 2009)
  Adjustable flaps (proposed for 2009) or adaptative wings (flexi-wings, it seems they're also proposed for 2011)
  Mandatory drag reduction (proposed for 2011, if I got it well)
  Switchable front wings (to allow for following closely, if I understood)
  Centerline Downwash Generating wings, a mouthful for a cut wing
  Using arrays of MEMS for improved airflow (MEMSs are microchips that move, like mini-feathers on the surface)
  Plasma generators on the edges of wings to improve airflow

Tyres

• Mandatory change of compounds during the race for variations in grip among the cars (already in place)
  Re-introduction of softer slicks (proposed for 2009)
  Use wider tyres (I don't see how this would equalize the cars)
  Increase the frontal area of rear tyres (kilcoo316 didn't tell us why, but he propose to drift through the curves...)
  Relax tyre rules to allow the teams to choose the tyre they want from a more varied set of compounds
  Use enhanced tyres that left a trail of chemicals to increase grip

Engine

• Kinetic Energy Recovery System (proposed for 2009, I imagine) for selectable boost that allow overtaking
  Freeze engines to "narrow the field" (already in place)

Chassis

• Wider cars with a track of 2meters (proposed for 2009; I imagine this allows you to get "cleaner air", but I don't know why it works)
  Adjustable ride height (proposed, don't know when, don't know how it will enhance overtaking)
  Allow for two classes of cars in the race, like Le Mans and ALMS

Tracks

• Make wider tracks that allow for two lines of racing
  Change asphalt for other material with better friction, like urethane, and get rid of a lot of the downforce (it goes along your idea of enhanced grip)
  Do it the other way: change asphalt so it offers less grip, to offer "wet conditions" without water (see the proposals under "Others").
  Use sideslope more, like in ovals, or use a sideslope that varies and offer more grip to the car that overtakes
  Change slope in curve entrance to make braking more difficult

Others

• Look for rainy days in the calendar, using weather forecast for the regions where the GPs are held (and use "open asphalt", to drain the rain).
  Use sprinklers to wet the track
  Change the point system
  Elliminate Parc Fermé rules that impede you to have qualifying trim different from racing trim, to improve "diversity" of the field
  Allow refueling before the race to improve "diversity" of fuel strategies for the race
  Ban refueling during the race (I don't understand why this could influence overtakings)
  Use manual gear levers for shifting (to force the drivers to make mistakes )
  Show all overtakings in TV, not only the overtakings of the drivers in front

There must be more, I give up. Anyway, I'll add what you suggest during this thread or other ideas that you can dig from the links I gave above.

There is a final suggestion: live with it, there has not been much variation in overtaking in the last 10 years.

Overtakings per year in the last 25 years


Besides, the larger variation in overtaking occurs among tracks, not among seasons (well, again, not in the last 10 years, roughly since ground effect was banned).

Overtakings per track in the last 10 years

[Ogami musashi]

viewtopic.php?p=69066&f=6#p69066

The actual rules for 2009.

[Ciro Pabón]

viewtopic.php?p=69066&f=6#p69066

The actual rules for 2009.

Thanks, Ogami. Could you comment if what I posted agrees with them?

[Ogami musashi]

This is a very complex topic.

The big difficulty here is that the lack of overtaking is due to multiples aspect but each one affect the other.

Say if you take the aeros, one of the solutions is to decrease the downforce (that what's has been adopted for 2009, a cut by 50%) and increase tyre grip.

Now the problem is that tyres are actually also a cause of lack of overtaking.
Like aerodynamics a two fold problem occurs, being that the tyres loose too much rubber that go offline and tyres are too sensitive.

So if you increase tyres, you have to see what will come next.

So we have to tackle things at once.

About the aero, i was an anti-downforce cut as if the cut was too small if would have changed nothing to the situation now.

But finally downforce will be reduced by 50% which is a large cut and IF current grip levels are maintained the tyre grip increase will really make that, following someone, you'll loose less overall grip.

So that's good.

Actually i'm pretty optimistic for 2009 about that what i do really hope is that the current pace of F1 car is maintained.

IF F1 cars are slowed down and if you read Rory bryne comment, just cut the downforce by 90% and they end up being slower than GP2cars, then i don't really see the point of F1.

As i said the traction circle of an F1 is what makes it different from other series.

But that's speculation.


Well going back to the topic, track modifications, sporting regulations, all of that could help, but i really think you have to tackle it at once, and that's what the OWG is doing.

So for those who don't read here are the adopted rules for 2009:

-50% downforce reduction from 2006 levels (this means about 60% reduction for now, but realistically teams will make for some of the downforce loss so except 50% cut from now).

-Reshaping of front wing (to be less sensitive).

-Reshaping of diffuser/rear wing (for less coupling between them, a major source of turbulence)

-banning of SOME appendices (the ones that are too sensitive)

-Increase in diffuser size (for more ground effects)

-Adjustable flaps (for making up the loss of downforce behind a car...not hard to imagine it will be used for many other things.)

-Track Wide of 2meters

-Re-introduction of softer slicks


As for now 2011 plans are stand by, but OWg made it clear they'll continue to reshape things with a big revamp in 2013.

[dave kumar]

Ciro - thanks for your detailed reply. The graphs are very interesting, especially the variation between tracks. From a cursory look it seems that some of my favourite tracks have the least overtaking (with the exception of Brazil)!

Multiple racing lines available on a track would improve overtaking opportunities for sure. I think the narrowing of F1 cars over the years was maybe an attempt to acheive this but it probably just had the effect of making the cars less stable under braking and the drivers less willing to chuck the cars around. Some of the new tracks (China, Turkey) are very wide compared to the older ones and your graph does seem to support the idea that this promotes overtaking. But there are other factors such as long straight, slow corner combinations.

Your idea of changing the track surface is also interesting. I still can't decide why wet weather racing is such an exciting spectacle, maybe could be because some drivers struggle to adapt as quickly as others to the new conditions. If we could reproduce it without the dangerous spray it could work but I wonder how long drivers would take to alter their driving style to adapt this different surface and bring us back to square one.

I still think that any tweaks to the aero regulations will ultimately fail for the reasons I outlined earlier - by the time the air reaches the following car it will be harder to generate downforce because it has been worked hard by the car in front.

And I'm still looking for other suggestions that don't involve some sort of artificial intervention like the switchable front wing or turbo boost.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I corrected the first post, adding what Ogami said on the rules, and, OMG, you're right, I forgot KERS.

[manchild]

I still think that blaming aero for lack of overtaking is ridiculous. Modern drivers are in F1 for the sake of money. They take risks very rarely and only when such risk guarantees title or win. They are not racers but point pickers, compromisers. Modern drivers don't have balls to overtake as frequently as it was once normal in F1. They are smiling, politically correct, tiny gears in F1 industry and they just do their part of the job. F1 isn't sport for a very long time. If something technical reduces number of overtaking than its the sequential gearboxes, TC, fly by wire, power steering etc. Not the aero.

[ackzsel]

I still think that blaming aero for lack of overtaking is ridiculous. Modern drivers are in F1 for the sake of money. They take risks very rarely and only when such risk guarantees title or win. They are not racers but point pickers, compromisers. Modern drivers don't have balls to overtake as frequently as it was once normal in F1. They are smiling, politically correct, tiny gears in F1 industry and they just do their part of the job. F1 isn't sport for a very long time. If something technical reduces number of overtaking than its the sequential gearboxes, TC, fly by wire, power steering etc. Not the aero.

I totally agree. It seems obvious that being able to follow each other closer would lead to more overtaking, but I think this is neglectable compared to bringing back driving errors. If the later assumption is true then banning driving-aids would be much more effective.

[modbaraban]

...but I think this is neglectable compared to bringing back driving errors. If the later assumption is true then banning driving-aids would be much more effective.

There is a far better way. Get some lousy drivers! F1 was amatorish 10 years ago compared to today's not to mention earlier F1. I realize that most of the members would stab me after this but face it! You can't go and win in F1 if you've been racing snowmobiles or bikes or whatever. Today these guys are trained to be ideal F1 racers since their very childhood. You CANNOT get to this level of motosports if you're not a fanatic and care more about money, simply because there are other and much easier ways to earn. I never gonna accept such bullshit. The only reason of camparatively less overtaking is the fact that (as manchild called it) pointtaking is more efficient that trying to win everything. To Finish First, First You Must Finish. Care to compare JPM and MS, and their achievments? Sato and Fisi?

[/rant (sorry) ]

[fastback33]

New rules sound exciting, and i really enjoy a lot of the aero look of modern f1 car's. Hopefully even pansies will be able to put on a good show!

[Conceptual]

I like what Pat Symonds (Overtaking Workgroup) said in a pod cast a few months ago.

Not a direct quote, but the jist is close: "To increase overtaking we simply need to lower the front wing, raise the rear wing, and give the driver more horsepower than the chassis can handle... And we can make a pretty damn good chassis" - Pat Symonds

I really like his style and view on the spectacle of the show. People dont necessarily want to see overtaking, they want to see overtaking ATTEMPTS, and the ballsier the attempt, the better the spectacle.

Lower front wing, higher rear wing, and a 16lb turbo strapped to the 2.4L V8, and LETS GO RACING!

Chris

[checkered]

There's one simple

notion which I don't think has come up by its own right yet: Race tactics. I'm sure there have been at least a comparable amount of advances made in tactics as in more visible areas like aerodynamics. This is generally derived from pitstop strategy and for good reason - an on track pass is mathematically on average much less productive. (I.e. the propablity of an accident is high, it tends to compromise tyres affecting average pace etc.) So, disregarding other considerations and prioritising engineering and driving skill over tactics, tyre and fuel stops (barring problems) should be banned. Too simplistic, I know, but there's something to this. Somehow, the tactical capability of the teams needs to be limited to on-track action, not off-track machinations.

As to senna-toleman's original suggestion, you know, we aren't all too far from a situation where we could do something like that with smart materials and nanotechnology. I'd perhaps go about it a little differently, trying to develop a durable surface coating material which could be applied directly to the road. This would contain microscopic strands that under less than local atmospheric pressure change their geometry to allow for more microscopic surface area, providing more grip. Thus, the closer you get to the car in front, the more grip you have and you need less aero to keep up. Nonetheless, move off the line to overtake and the two competing drivers have equal circumstances to judge their braking distance.

It's fair enough, though perhaps a little detrimental in solving a very tough traction circle problem through the vehicle dynamics alone.

[Ciro Pabón]

I'm with Modbaraban here. I doubt bravery alone can explain a reduction in overtakings like the one we've seen in the last 25 years. Look at the data regression:



As you can see, if Juan Pablo Montoya hasn't come to F1, which explains clearly the change in the tendency, the "collective balls" of the grid, according to Manchild's theory, would have become zero in 2004. All I can say is "thank heavens for Juan". So, my last suggestion to improve overtaking is to clone Juan 23 times and use his clones as drivers. Oh, and moving to NASCAR.

Seriously, I think aerodynamics influences a lot on overtakings, as there is clearly a chorus of people in the bussiness that are saying that dirty air is a problem. Counting the "officially proposed" changes to improve overtakings, this are the numbers:

Aerodynamics: 7 changes
Tyres: 2 changes
Engine: 2 changes
Chassis: 1 change

So, unless the "collective brain" has descended to zero also, aerodynamics matters a lot.

About checkered comments, sure there are proposals in the forum that relate to tactics: look at the "Others" section in my first post. None of these proposals have been implemented, maybe because they are crazy and because there are other reasons for the refueling and qualifying rules besides increase overtakings. For example, banning tyre changes would be dangerous.

Besides, with all due respect, how would banning pit stops increase overtakings? What's the benefit for the follower? I still fail to see how some proposals would increase overtakings, if they make harder for everybody to drive, not only to the guy that's leading.

If, exaggerating modbaraban idea, we put monkeys to drive the cars, well, then all the cars will be driven by monkeys, not only the car in front. The race would be slower, you wil not get more overtakings.

I also find a little unfair to "shoot all the arrows to the guy in front". The problem seems to be the "age of big sponsors", together with a more professional field. When you are close to 100% efficiency and the field is mature, overtaking is harder.

Finally, I added a simple proposal to my first post list, in view that nobody has added a new idea, ehem:

• To show all overtakings in TV

Hasn't those guys at TV heard of replays? They seem to concentrate a disporportionate amount of time on the leaders and rarely if ever show backmarkers overtaking. I'd say 90% of the TV time is devoted to the three or four cars in front, where overtakings are few. The heated battles at the back of the pack, where presumibly there are less perfect drivers and cars are few times seen on TV.

[manchild]

I think we should clear out some definitions.

To simply overtake a slower car in front of you isn't racing.

Racing is when you overtake car as fast as yours or even faster using your skill in the right moment, and than defend your position from being taken back! That's racing!

In the past 10 or 15 years "racing" looks like this; Driver overtakes slower car in front and never looks back again! "Fire and forget"! There hasn't been a single case in which someone lost position after gaining one, trough repeated battle after several laps. It happens that someone overtakes and looses position but that only during the initial fight, it lasts few seconds. I can't remember seeing someone being overtaken with increasing gap and than fighting back, reducing gap in each lap and regaining position trough repeated battle. Such things don't exist in F1 anymore.

Also, when driver in good car starts race from back of the grid due to penalty and overtakes midfield cars that's not racing!