Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

There is a news at autosport about Honda test engine
With Honda trying to unlock more power from its engine ahead of a planned new specification being introduced, its F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa says some development concepts will be tried by Oliver Turvey and Stoffel Vandoorne this week to help improve understanding of what needs to be done.

[Vortex37]

Respectfully I think that a small number of people are forgetting to think of these PU's as a complete system. Simplistically - everything affects (almost) everything else. It's well known that lean AFR's can cause huge problems of combustion instability. Another point is that ultra high injection pressures(>300bar) vaporise fuel which can cool the charge area, especially important in developing lean combustion topology. I would speculate that stepped bowl pistons might be in use. (If) there are multiple injection/ignition events, it would be far too easy to get uneven firing across all cylinders. Not misfiring as such, but an effect like intermittent lower output in cylinders, which would affect MGU-H which the affects.....vibration....and so on. So the idea of running richer makes sense. However that would potentially mean a loss of overall efficiency/power.

[dren]

It's not the fact that they use single cylinder testing that annoys people, it's Honda's naivety on the results- saying that they were surprised by how difficult it is to transition it to V6.. That's utter incompetence.

Honda builds excellent V6 ICEs, I know, I own one. Honda certainly has experience jumping from single cylinder test engines to V6s. If the results surprised them, then they really were caught off with the new combustion interaction with the other two cylinders shared.

[godlameroso]

It's not the fact that they use single cylinder testing that annoys people, it's Honda's naivety on the results- saying that they were surprised by how difficult it is to transition it to V6.. That's utter incompetence.

Honda builds excellent V6 ICEs, I know, I own one. Honda certainly has experience jumping from single cylinder test engines to V6s. If the results surprised them, then they really were caught off with the new combustion interaction with the other two cylinders shared.

V6 in the Accord/TSX/Oddesy? V6 in the old NSX, or the new one? V6 in the Acura Legend? Maybe you mean the 2.8 V6 from their LMP2 program which was derived from a street engine? I don't think any of those were 90 degree V6's.

[dren]

It's not the fact that they use single cylinder testing that annoys people, it's Honda's naivety on the results- saying that they were surprised by how difficult it is to transition it to V6.. That's utter incompetence.

Honda builds excellent V6 ICEs, I know, I own one. Honda certainly has experience jumping from single cylinder test engines to V6s. If the results surprised them, then they really were caught off with the new combustion interaction with the other two cylinders shared.

V6 in the Accord/TSX/Oddesy? V6 in the old NSX, or the new one? V6 in the Acura Legend? Maybe you mean the 2.8 V6 from their LMP2 program which was derived from a street engine? I don't think any of those were 90 degree V6's.

It's a J35. All J series have 60 deg bank angles. The C series all had 90 degree bank angles. The C series is what was in the original NSX.

[fellowhoodlums]

I'm guilty of knowing little of the technical side but I enjoy reading all these postings and won't comment on stuff i have no knowledge of. I confess to also being guilty of posting frustrations in the engine technical space.

I follow McLaren Honda with belief in the project and I do at least put some thought and consideration before posting so it's a complaint with purpose - ha!

[GhostF1]

Honda builds excellent V6 ICEs, I know, I own one. Honda certainly has experience jumping from single cylinder test engines to V6s. If the results surprised them, then they really were caught off with the new combustion interaction with the other two cylinders shared.

V6 in the Accord/TSX/Oddesy? V6 in the old NSX, or the new one? V6 in the Acura Legend? Maybe you mean the 2.8 V6 from their LMP2 program which was derived from a street engine? I don't think any of those were 90 degree V6's.

It's a J35. All J series have 60 deg bank angles. The C series all had 90 degree bank angles. The C series is what was in the original NSX.

I'll jump in here haha. I've got an NA1 NSX which has the C30A. I can confirm that's a 90 degree V6 and even in this day and age, I find it a phenomenal 6-cylinder at that! (sorry off topic)

Honestly, every time something has happened with this power unit, Hasegawa's comment on the RA617H's development last year rings in my head clearly..

"The new architecture for the RA617H is very high risk, this is the only way to catch up to Mercedes, but the technology we implemented into the design, we do not fully understand just yet and it will take time to fully realise potential".

We just have to ignore the fanfare and media blowups about any issues with each GP, we knew this would probably happen but we stick with them, they know what needs doing and we have to trust that.

And I'll also admit, I don't have the technical skill that some guys have here but I like to think I'm pretty well read, well enough to have a little chat. Otherwise I find a lot of the content here fascinating and I read every bit of it but I'll stay quiet. Anyway onwards and upwards!

[Sebastian_meana]

When i read the thing about honda talking about how hard is the transition to design a f1 engine i thinked they are joking or are playing a bad game cause they maded a lot of v6 engines

Possibly the hard part is the transition to turbocharged engines with pressures as high as in diesel engines but spinning much faster, is hard to tell which are the problems but seing honda cant get good reliability or power while their engine is the lightest the first thing comes to my mind is the connecting rods which in parts would help the vibration and power problems of the ice but also would get lower revs

Sometimes complex problems get easy solutions they are doing parts that are to delicate my first though of the MGU-H blowing up was about overheating or a short circuit which a solution could be put the MGU stator in a shield filled with transformer oil and cool it trough an radiator

[Thunder]

Cooling wasn't the Problem:
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/139655-hon ... a-disaster

"No, I don't think [heat is a problem]. Obviously the temperatures are a bit high but these are not as hard conditions as on the dyno."

[f1rules]

I really enjoyed this thread and still do with all the knowledgeable people contributing. Glenntws your input is very very interesting, what i just dont understand. If the concept is that healthy, and its minor adjustments needed, how come it takes so long to show progress.

[Sebastian_meana]

Cooling wasn't the Problem:
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/139655-hon ... a-disaster

"No, I don't think [heat is a problem]. Obviously the temperatures are a bit high but these are not as hard conditions as on the dyno."

That is makes it really interesing it would be more interesing what they are refering with saying "yeah wasn't an overheating problem" because gives to one the feel what they are saying is "yeah wasn't an overheating problem just melted the mgu winding insulation melted and suffered an inmense short circuit"

As far as little as i know in a electrical turbocompunded engine the things somebody tries to find when it fails are basically single points failure, the most possible single point failure is that a short circuit happened, the other one is IF honda is using a synchronous reluctance MGU the electronic command unit a.k.a computer failed possibly due to overheating or a bad connection of the wires. If it wasn't exclusively a MGU problem the other options are the wiring, the batteries inverters or even the ball bearings and balacing of the shaft.

[JuanjoTS]

For science the glass is slightly below half, since the top is wider than the bottom, so the engineers are in the middle. No matter how the glass is, what matters is where.
This engine has potential, although it may seem that the distance is large is not so much.
Bad day for McHonda, yes, but it is not the end, we were pleasantly surprised in China and we were disappointed in Bahrain, that's all. Aim, only 13 cars finished.
Let's wait for the test results today and draw constructive conclusions.

[Sebastian_meana]

Cooling wasn't the Problem:
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/139655-hon ... a-disaster

"No, I don't think [heat is a problem]. Obviously the temperatures are a bit high but these are not as hard conditions as on the dyno."

Would be interesing to know what they are refering with the "yeah wasn't a overheating problem" or they tried to say"well the windings insulation melted and caused quite an awful short circuit" trying to not look stupid or put in game the pride, but anyway who really know what happens in honda really.

The most possible failure of an MGU (as far as my little knowledge goes) is a single point failure, which leads directly to an overheating problem, or a melted cable/connection, unless they go to a syncrhonous reluctance mgu which could possibly being a failure of the electronic control unit a.k.a computer, if isn't exclusively a problem of the motor generator the other problems could be unbalanced shaft or a ball bearings problems, or even a battery failure with the inverter.

[wuzak]

Since Jerez 2015 to april 2017 do you know how many mayor upgrades Honda has been allowed to do to fix 2015 PU problems? One. 2017 upgrade. During 2015 and 2016 seasons they were token restricted, wich means they were NOT allowed to solve their problems as the PU did need a mayor upgrade. Honda was hand-tied those complete two seasons.

No doubt the 2016 PU was a major upgrade too.

They had 32 tokens for the 2016 season. Which meant they could change half the power unit. And tehy ahd some tokens for in-season development in 2015, though perhaps they should not.

And reliability upgrades were free - no tokens spent.

Ferrari's 2014 PU was easily the third best of 2014. The 2015 PU jumped into 2nd and closed down the gap. The 2016 got closer still, though it had reliability issues. All achieved with the token system.

[alexa]

More problems on Bahrain test,a hydraulic leak was found on the energy recovery system of the Honda power unit after just two installation laps.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895362/

,they really having problems even to do test, it's gonna hit them bad not just on engine side,but aero as well