2017 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, April 14-16

[lebesset]

I find this discussion about whether or not Hamilton having to concede the place back to Bottas quite silly, and even sillier that we are speaking of a n.1 and n.2 driver. I'll discuss the events in chronological order:

-First off, a parallel is being drawn to the race in China where Vettel had to fight his way past Raikkonen instead of ordering Raikkonen to let him through. I think this is actually a mistake from Ferrari, which is quite surprising as that team never had much of an issue with team orders (but this could be due Arrivabene's different approach). Maybe they wanted to give Raikkonen a fair shot on getting past Ricciardo, but this took way too long.
-Regarding Hamilton's DRS: he probably pushed the button too early. In that case, that is his mistake. Period.
-Now regarding letting Hamilton past: Bottas simply did not have the pace, that much was clear. That has nothing to do with driver preference; if the situation was turned Hamilton would have done the same, and I personally believe he would have allowed Bottas through as Hamilton should understand the potential on a victory and crucial team points are very important now as Mercedes is not dominating anymore, and his relation with Bottas is not soured as it was with Rosberg.
-Furthermore, Hamilton was right up to the end in the reach of Vettel to capitalize if something happened with the latter. It actually happened in the past where during the 2011 Canadian GP Button overtook Vettel when the latter went off the track in the last lap. You can't order Hamilton in that situation to give the place back, especially not if Bottas is 15s back.

what a pity you can't upgrade a mod's post , clearly nothing here anyone unbiased could disagree with as an analysis of events
I understand why bottas was so slow on his first tyres ....but why so much slower than hamilton thereafter ? as I stated before I think there is an explanation ....bottas was optimised to get on the front row with hamilton even if
that affected his race pace ; vettel was clearly going to be a threat in the race and an all front row mercedes start would help neutralise that threat
and a bad start from hamilton ? anyone notice that ricciardo...no slouch at the start ...couldn't do any better on that side of the grid

[giantfan10]

I find this discussion about whether or not Hamilton having to concede the place back to Bottas quite silly, and even sillier that we are speaking of a n.1 and n.2 driver. I'll discuss the events in chronological order:

-First off, a parallel is being drawn to the race in China where Vettel had to fight his way past Raikkonen instead of ordering Raikkonen to let him through. I think this is actually a mistake from Ferrari, which is quite surprising as that team never had much of an issue with team orders (but this could be due Arrivabene's different approach). Maybe they wanted to give Raikkonen a fair shot on getting past Ricciardo, but this took way too long.
-Regarding Hamilton's DRS: he probably pushed the button too early. In that case, that is his mistake. Period.
-Now regarding letting Hamilton past: Bottas simply did not have the pace, that much was clear. That has nothing to do with driver preference; if the situation was turned Hamilton would have done the same, and I personally believe he would have allowed Bottas through as Hamilton should understand the potential on a victory and crucial team points are very important now as Mercedes is not dominating anymore, and his relation with Bottas is not soured as it was with Rosberg.
-Furthermore, Hamilton was right up to the end in the reach of Vettel to capitalize if something happened with the latter. It actually happened in the past where during the 2011 Canadian GP Button overtook Vettel when the latter went off the track in the last lap. You can't order Hamilton in that situation to give the place back, especially not if Bottas is 15s back.

what a pity you can't upgrade a mod's post , clearly nothing here anyone unbiased could disagree with as an analysis of events
I understand why bottas was so slow on his first tyres ....but why so much slower than hamilton thereafter ? as I stated before I think there is an explanation ....bottas was optimised to get on the front row with hamilton even if
that affected his race pace ; vettel was clearly going to be a threat in the race and an all front row mercedes start would help neutralise that threat
and a bad start from hamilton ? anyone notice that ricciardo...no slouch at the start ...couldn't do any better on that side of the grid

Vettel also didnt get a better start than hamilton if you look closely.... the Ferrari was able brake a lot later than the Mercedes and thats where Vettel gained the advantage to get by hamilton

[Mandrake]

I find this discussion about whether or not Hamilton having to concede the place back to Bottas quite silly, and even sillier that we are speaking of a n.1 and n.2 driver. I'll discuss the events in chronological order:

After having gapped Bottas by 15 seconds yes, it was silly to talk about giving the place back.

Overall the situation is having a big impact on the drivers championship though. Imagine Ferrari wasn't there, Hamilton would have needed to pass Bottas on track. Something that wasn't an easy task despite Bottas' problems...you need more than 1.5s better performance to stand a chance, something that Hamilton in a normal race doesn't have against Bottas. So by letting Hamilton by to try and catch or capitalise on a failing Vettel, they effectively weakened Bottas position in the WDC. So if based on the points standing at one point it is decided to go full Hamilton, it's a bit unfair taking into consideration how he got 18 instead of 15 points in Bahrain.

[Manoah2u]

I'm surprised we haven't read some tinfoil hat theories about Mercedes delibaretely putting too much pressure in bottas tires so that Hamilton had a shot

anyway, Bottas did not have a chance at P1 either way, so that ship had sailed long ago. Hamilton DID have a shot at P1 - whether his pit entry actions would have made much difference remains to be seen, it didn't help but it's not as easy as 'he finished 2 secs behind thus he would have been 3 secs ahead' - so it was in both Lewis' interest to go for it for the WDC aswell as Merc's interest to get as most WCC points especially with Ferrari on the pace. If bottas would have picked up the pace - if that was even remotly possible, probably not - he could have followed Hamilton when he took on a battle with Vettel, and if very lucky, could capatilize if Hamilton goes past and jump Vettel.

either way, Lewis had a clear shot at the win, even if it was superbly small window of opportunity, that unfortunately went away when the backmarkers didn't hold up Vettel enough to capatilise on it. Lewis accepted P2 as it's early in the season and it's better to get P2 and be second in the WDC instead of trashing it and having a DNF.

Vettel simply had both luck and a better strategy than Mercedes which got him to pass the competition through the undercut and then also benefit from the safety car.
Also, Verstappens DNF surely had a good impact on how the race went along too, since there wasn't a RB in the mix to upset things.

[George-Jung]

Vettel simply had both luck and a better strategy than Mercedes which got him to pass the competition through the undercut and then also benefit from the safety car.
Also, Verstappens DNF surely had a good impact on how the race went along too, since there wasn't a RB in the mix to upset things.

You say Vettel had:
- Luck
- Better strategy
- Benefits from SC

and you also mention that the DNF of Verstappen contributed to it all..

Just wondering; which part is 'luck'?
because I don't see luck having any part of it.

[ThumbsUp]

Well Hamilton finished 6.6 sec behind Vettel. And you can assume that penalty didn't matter at all. He was second at any scenario. Because Vettel was controlling the pace thus had some margin to defend. But Hamilton could be in the mirror of Vettel try to force him into a mistake.

Hamilton might have won if he started on pole or 3rd.

Just my thought though

[Manoah2u]

Luck as in being on track at that moment that he could benefit from the SC.
Also, if Verstappen did not have a DNF, he would have disrupted the party and be a wig for Vettel to get that P1 and obviously also for Hamilton.
I don't think Max would have won the race, but it would have given Lewis and Vettel a chance to battle it out on the track.

Also, he was lucky that Bottas had pressure problems and struggled with balance and his rear tires, which took a Mercedes out of the equasion.

not that i don't think Vettel didn't deserve this win, lets get that straight though. He deserved it fair and square.

[Manoah2u]

Well Hamilton finished 6.6 sec behind Vettel. And you can assume that penalty didn't matter at all. He was second at any scenario. Because Vettel was controlling the pace thus had some margin to defend. But Hamilton could be in the mirror of Vettel try to force him into a mistake.

Hamilton might have won if he started on pole or 3rd.

Just my thought though

Lewis rather abandoned his hunt for P1 when the backmarkers proved to not give the desired result, so yeah, it got to 6.6 in the end because he stopped the hunt and settled for 2nd. If he wouldn't settled, he would have finished perhaps 2 seconds behind Vettel, but it didn't change much anymore as he couldn't make it anymore either way.

[Just_a_fan]

I'd reply with some sense but you wouldn't listen.

Increasingly, with the race threads, I find myself thinking of this:

and then I go and do something else.

No point getting in to arguments in here, especially with certain people. Waste of time and will change nothing. Too much fanboy/fanhate to make it worthwhile.

The tech threads are where it's at. =D>

[George-Jung]

Luck as in being on track at that moment that he could benefit from the SC.
Also, if Verstappen did not have a DNF, he would have disrupted the party and be a wig for Vettel to get that P1 and obviously also for Hamilton.
I don't think Max would have won the race, but it would have given Lewis and Vettel a chance to battle it out on the track.

Also, he was lucky that Bottas had pressure problems and struggled with balance and his rear tires, which took a Mercedes out of the equasion.

not that i don't think Vettel didn't deserve this win, lets get that straight though. He deserved it fair and square.

Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..

If you compare where Ferrari and Vettel were last year to where they are this year... I dont think you could say luck was part of any of it.

[Sevach]

This is silly the SC worked against Vettel, pitting under SC is more advantageous than pitting under green flag conditions like Vettel did, without the SC Sebastian would've been a long way ahead once Hamilton and Bottas completed their stops.

Of course Hamilton kinda returned the favor by getting himself penalized.

[Manoah2u]

Luck as in being on track at that moment that he could benefit from the SC.
Also, if Verstappen did not have a DNF, he would have disrupted the party and be a wig for Vettel to get that P1 and obviously also for Hamilton.
I don't think Max would have won the race, but it would have given Lewis and Vettel a chance to battle it out on the track.

Also, he was lucky that Bottas had pressure problems and struggled with balance and his rear tires, which took a Mercedes out of the equasion.

not that i don't think Vettel didn't deserve this win, lets get that straight though. He deserved it fair and square.

Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..

If you compare where Ferrari and Vettel were last year to where they are this year... I dont think you could say luck was part of any of it.

Yet i just did say exactly that, and i stand by that.

You don't have to agree to that though, each to their own.

[Chene_Mostert]

Luck as in being on track at that moment that he could benefit from the SC.
Also, if Verstappen did not have a DNF, he would have disrupted the party and be a wig for Vettel to get that P1 and obviously also for Hamilton.
I don't think Max would have won the race, but it would have given Lewis and Vettel a chance to battle it out on the track.

Also, he was lucky that Bottas had pressure problems and struggled with balance and his rear tires, which took a Mercedes out of the equasion.

not that i don't think Vettel didn't deserve this win, lets get that straight though. He deserved it fair and square.

Than basically you say that Vettel is just lucky to have won the race- excluding all the hard work that has been done over the last couple of months by the Scuderia..

If you compare where Ferrari and Vettel were last year to where they are this year... I dont think you could say luck was part of any of it.

Yet i just did say exactly that, and i stand by that.

You don't have to agree to that though, each to their own.

Yes, but it would be nice if you can expand on your statement, then we can actually test / challenge the validity of your logic.
Otherwise most assume you are just saying it because you can and that is stupid.

[Sieper]

Luck was all decisive! Both in China as well as in Bahrain. In China Vettel had bad luck that after the VSC a real SC situation came to happen. In Bahrein he had already changed his tyres and then the SC came moving him into spot 1, verstappen would have been in spot 2 hadn't his rear brakes failed. That was luck (this time around). It was also a good strategy anyway, but the SC came at a very good point for Vettel. In his post race interview he also said himself "oh no not again" but the others had just passed the pit entry this time around.

Scuderia did great work, they are now super close to merc. They are now SO close actually that luck (or the absence of bad luck) is becomming more and more important. Luck is not a dirty word nor a discredit of Any of the good and hard work by the teams now at the top.

[George-Jung]

It is not luck being or becoming more important; hard work, excellent strategies and execution are becoming more important in order to win in such a competitive field.

Verstappen also did't have bad luck- it was just poor quality of some of the parts in his car that came to play.