2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Muniix
Muniix
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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gruntguru wrote:
03 May 2017, 05:50
Muniix wrote:
02 May 2017, 21:16
Which has a huge amount of ring friction area, 3 ring packs with 1 huge bore.
From a friction point of view, this needs to be viewed as a two cylinder engine (two pistons sharing a cylinder) - 2 ring packs - nothing unusual there. The third "huge" piston operates at low pressures (think low ring friction) and is constrained by a shared set of crosshead bearings (no skirt friction). This piston is the scavenge pump - a necessary evil for two-strokes and is cleverly integrated to probably consume less energy than the ubiquitous roots blower.
.
It has reduced turbulence at start of combustion due to reduced piston velocity towards TDC compared to mean piston velocity. This slows combustion significantly requiring the engine to run at higher speeds and greater losses consuming more fuel less effiently.
Nonsense. This is a Diesel engine. Appropriate turbulence levels near TDC get designed-in, typically using squish.
.
Slower combustion causes higher heat loss, Lower thermodynamic efficiency.
To be more accurate combustion occurring later (measured in crankshaft degrees) causes lower TE ie a slower piston motion near TDC actually increases thermodynamic efficiency.
Technically it depends on combustion temperature, liner temperature, barrier layer and heat flux. Typically slower combustion does increase heat loss in practice. Controlling cooling flows with clever software is highly useful. A virtual sensor calculating heat flux into cylinder surfaces​ used by the coolant system controller.
This design is devoid of any cooling, turbulence being the major driver.
All those large big end bearings have clearly not been through any size or friction optimisation, the bigend larger than the mains, insane more excessive friction and masses increasing inertial forces combined with its need to run at higher speeds this is terrible design.
Its not a detailed design, its a concept design.
.
Rating. 0 out of 5, fail, try again
As a concept: 4 out of 5. It solves many of the issues present in prior OP designs. Congratulations Manolis.
Try licensing it and improving its shortcomings and see if the license agreement is honoured. Would you bet your business on demonstrated behaviour?
I was semi impressed with the design initially, even showed it to a prospective licensee who was not as impressed as I'd expected, don't think they saw it's potential, then I showed examples of how opinionated the designer was on various issues, dual plugs etc where he denied the evidence of their​ advantages where they are implemented correctly.
That killed any chance it had, I kinda thought integrating it with a good transmission with smart power train control would have been ideal for their use, just a lot of challenging but interesting work.
Last edited by Muniix on 04 May 2017, 04:49, edited 1 time in total.

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 08:27
Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 06:35


...This would be a win win situation for everyone.

Let the best technology win, what could be more pure and productive, thermodynamic efficiency also plays part of the decision. So bsfc and power, emissions, cooling, mass etc all the usual suspects get weighed into the winning solution.

Then we'll have the most effective single cylinder mild hybrid 711 cc motorcycle engine on the planet.
I'll make the cylinder housing to fit crankcases. Or if you prefer the 393cc version with 98 mm bore. Rear swingarm length is important don't want to reduce that length for obvious reasons.

Thanks Marc

Is it a 2-stroke?

If it aint, then its a lose-lose - on this thread..

You'd be better off doing a single cylinder* bike utilizing a 50hp/566cc 1/6th fraction of the BRP/Evinrude E-TEC G2 mill..

& Manolis just happens to have an innovative CVT design to suit it..

* Or an 1132cc twin, if you want a bigger machine..
The Ducati Supermono 580cc single in final tune had over 80hp, the BMR Suzuki Supermono had 115hp in '98.
Your 50hp/566 cc can't be right.

The reason for the smaller engine was that the 711 cc normally aspirated engine was producing over 140 kW on consertative simulation normally aspirated, emmisions compliant, got carried away with optimisation. Without driving the Hybrid with 170 Amps at 50 volts, limit of the silicon not Hybrid Graphene super capitor/Li-ion energy storage which is small and light. Without​ stressing bearings or creating torsional issues.

So a 393 with micro Hybrid came into existence, de-stroked to 300 it is the same 98x40 mm of a V10 F1 engine cylinder.

All with very good fuel efficiency due to thermodynamic and mechanical efficiency. Torque with mild hybrid torque fill is Wild
Last edited by Muniix on 03 May 2017, 12:04, edited 2 times in total.

Pinger
Pinger
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 03:40
P, perhaps this link may be of interest/value..
http://www.bucketracing.blogspot.com.au ... s-aka.html
Thanks J.A.W. - interesting but, at the same time it highlights an issue regarding available 2T literature. So much is based on race motors where chasing every last hp is the name of the game. My specific power output I'm aiming for is significantly lower - 75-100hp/litre.

Pinger
Pinger
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 04:24

I was going to suggest you search for published papers on cfd research identifying the relationship. They may have models you can use. Unfortunately I got distracted, didn't follow my normal "What's important now" helping someone is more important than correcting biased opinions. Now their negatively affecting others with their opinions.
Cheers Muniix. I will seek out the type of papers you suggest. I suspect though that they will be dealing in the standard symmetrically timed transfer port opening/closing - whereas I am deviating from that script. Still, any info gleaned may be worthwhile (snippets are all!).
At the same time I'm preparing to test UBHC emissions at idle (initially - under load to follow) with varying degrees of transfer asymmetry. Results from that should tell me if I'm on the right track.

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello all.


Marc Jackson (Muniix) wrote:

“Which has a huge amount of ring friction area, 3 ring packs with 1 huge bore.

It has reduced turbulence at start of combustion due to reduced piston velocity towards TDC compared to mean piston velocity. This slows combustion significantly requiring the engine to run at higher speeds and greater losses consuming more fuel less effiently.

Slower combustion causes higher heat loss, Lower thermodynamic efficiency.

All those large big end bearings have clearly not been through any size or friction optimisation, the bigend larger than the mains, insane more excessive friction and masses increasing inertial forces combined with its need to run at higher speeds this is terrible design.

Rating. 0 out of 5, fail, try again”





Here is the “new model” of Achates Power (actually a replica of the Junkers Jumo 205).

Image

The external scavenging pump (top right, driven by the upper crankshaft though a pair of pulleys and a belt) provides compressed air – through the two “silver tubes” – to the front and back sides of the cylinder block.


The cost of such a scavenging pump is comparable, if not higher, than the complete cost of a similar capacity PatOP having integral piston-type scavenge pump.


The efficiency of a supercharger / blower cannot compare with a “piston type” scavenge pump, especially when the last is integrated in a combustion piston of a 2-stroke.


The structure of the PatOP (pulling rods, wrist pins at the opposite – cold - side of the crankshaft relative to the “combustion piston crown” etc) enables the integration, without increasing the number of parts used, of a scavenging pump.

The additional cost: a set of piston rings!



Several marine 2-stroke engines (those with the near 50% brake thermal efficiency) had “piston type” scavenge pumps.


Hugo Junkers (who designed and manufactured the Jumo 205 and several other Opposed Piston engines for airplanes), also designed / patented the famous Junkers-Doxford single-crankshaft opposed-piston engine (it was manufactured, under the license of Junkers, in Great Britain by Doxford and it was the typical marine engine till the 2nd world war):

Image


Do take a look at the http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/Wi ... d_and_Sons web site:

Image

Image

Image



The Junkers-Doxford uses a piston-type scavenge pump:

Image

wherein the scavenge pump piston is driven by its own crankpin and connecting rod.
This is a significant complication and cost: a crankpin dedicated to the scavenging, a pair of additional main crankshaft bearings, a couple of meters longer engine.

(by the way: think how much shorter – and more robust – the Junkers-Doxford would be based on the architecture of the pattakon PatPOC engine:

Image

more at: http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatPOC.htm )



In the PatOP things are different and more efficient than in the old marine engines with the piston-type scavenge pumps:

the big piston of the scavenge pump is secured on the “free” backside of the “inner” combustion piston of the PatOP (which means: it is driven directly, without adding connecting rods or crankpins etc).
With the big diameter scavenge piston at its backside, the “inner piston assembly” of the PatOP gets as heavy as the “outer piston” assembly (that with the two “barrel cross-heads).
The crankshaft needs not balance webs, at all, which, among other, allows single piece crankshaft and connecting rods to be used:

Image

No external balance shafts are required.

The PatOP, even in the single cylinder version, is an engine which, without any balance web, is fully balanced.





Slower piston at the combustion dead center and combustion efficiency:

Even with the best fuel, the power of a compression ignition engine drops steeply after, say, 4,500 rpm.

This is because the fuel needs time (absolute time, in milliseconds) to get prepared before the combustion.

What the PatOP and the OPRE (i.e. the pulling connecting rod architecture) offer?

Time. Absolute time:

Image

At 6,000rpm pistons of the PatOP remain in the last 15% of their stroke

Image

for more than 30% than the piston of a conventional running at the same revs.

With the same BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) the compression ignition engine can make some 30% higher power, because the PatOP can burn its diesel fuel efficiently (in time) at 30% higher revs.

From another point of view: at the same revs with a conventional, the PatOP has 30% more time that gives the chance for the optimization of the injection of the fuel.

This plot :

Image

shows that during most of the compression and the expansion, the piston of the PatOP moves, more or less, as fast as the piston of the conventional, and that during the end part of the piston stroke the piston of the PatOP “stops” and gives time to the combustion.


With the additional time provided by the pulling rod architecture, the designer has more options: at low revs the fuel can be injected substantially later (in crank degrees), while at high revs the fuel can be injected earlier (again in crank degrees) because at the same angle before the TDC the “compression” in the PatOP is substantially higher.


From another point of view: you have a conventional Diesel wherein the power output at 6,000rpm falls by 50% as compared to the power output of the same engine at 4,500rpm (despite the fact that at 6,000rpm the injected fuel is some 33% more).

What happens?

The fuel needs time to be prepared and burnt.
The time provided at 6,000rpm is not adequate.
The injection should start substantially earlier, but then the pressure and temperature would not be adequately high. Inevitably most of the fuel burns (if it is burnt) at substantially low expansion ratios (like, say, 5:1 or lower) which causes the steep drop of the power and the steep increase of the BSFC.

In comparison, a PatOP diesel revving at 6,000rpm is, for the fuel (note: the fuel gets into the cylinder only at the end of the compression), like a conventional running 4,500rpm. There is time for efficient combustion. The engine makes some 30% more power than the conventional and the BTE is similarly high with the conventional revving at 4,500rpm.


Accordingly, the additional dwell of the PatOP is not a constrain / restriction, it is an option.




The main crankshaft bearings of the PatOP run actually unloaded (this is a characteristic of other single cranksahft Opposed Piston engines, too, like the Junkers-Doxford and the OPOC), while the bearings at the big ends of the connecting rods of the PatOP are heavily loaded (combustion loads, inertia loads).


It is more than simple. However it still sounds complex, please let me know to further explain.





According all the previous “simple-minded” analysis:

The unique characteristics of the PatOP engine make it better than the state-of-the-art Opposed Piston engines.


It is sad that EcoMotors (of Bille Gates et al) is (?) closed.

And it is pity that Achates Power struggles with wrong basic designs (either that with the side crankshafts and the long (like bridges) connecting rods, or with the replica of the Junkers Jumo) while they have the funds, the machinery, the staff etc to put the Opposed Piston 2-strokes in production..

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Pinger
Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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gruntguru wrote:
03 May 2017, 05:13
Pinger wrote:
02 May 2017, 14:04
Muniix wrote:
02 May 2017, 13:38
I wouldn't put it past the F1 engineer to 'accidentally' leak oil into the combustion chamber to produce more heat during combustion. I would! even if my personal preference is not to polute, It would be my last way to gain power.
Talking of oil consumption...
Would a turbocharged EU4 compliant 2005 4T using engine oil at the rate of 2% of fuel under Lambda control (no air mass flow sensor) sense the oil as fuel and reduce fuel flow accordingly?
Yes.
Would the lowered octane rating cause the timing to be retarded? If yes to the above, would a more modern engine strategy prevent the above?
If the engine, is fitted with a knock sensor, was operating close to the knock limit and octane was reduced - the timing would be retarded. Some management systems will also reduce the boost once retard reaches a threshold.
Cheers.
The standard reason given for the routine failure (burned exhaust valves) of these engines once they start consuming oil (crap oil control rings) is that ''the oil burns hotter''. A theory I have never believed.
Looks more like the overzealous efforts of the ECU to maintain fuelling at or around stoichiometric and elimination of detonation (essential!) are the cause. (Another perspective - would it happen on a carbed motor?).

Diesels (4T) on the ropes on NOx emmissions, downsized SI engines in danger of self destruction caused by slight wear of tuppeny happeny parts. Our current car engines aren't in great shape.

Pinger
Pinger
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Manolis:
Image

How do you assemble one-piece rods on a one-piece crank?

Curious also as to what lead (CAD) you have given your exhaust pistons?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Pinger wrote:
03 May 2017, 11:02
J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 03:40
P, perhaps this link may be of interest/value..
http://www.bucketracing.blogspot.com.au ... s-aka.html
Thanks J.A.W. - interesting but, at the same time it highlights an issue regarding available 2T literature. So much is based on race motors where chasing every last hp is the name of the game. My specific power output I'm aiming for is significantly lower - 75-100hp/litre.
Like the BRP/Evinrude - noted on this very page, P?
Try an outboard/marine forum, &/or seek the info from source.. via BRP/Evinrude, or..
..you could ask a local dealer if you can do a port map/3D casting form - from an instructional unit..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 10:54
...So a 393 with micro Hybrid came into existence, de-stroked to 300 it is the same 98x40 mm of a V10 F1 engine cylinder.

All with very good fuel efficiency due to thermodynamic and mechanical efficiency. Torque with mild hybrid torque fill is Wild...

Marc, "Wild" is a technical term?
Maybe if the engine runs 'wild', & wont respond to rpm control..

I suggest you check the significant downside to use of such extreme B X S ratio too..
.. it is hardly practicable for everyday use.. useful torque per F1 rpm range of ~15,000-19,000 wears thin, fast..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Pinger
Pinger
9
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 11:47


Like the BRP/Evinrude - noted on this very page, P?
Try an outboard/marine forum, &/or seek the info from source.. via BRP/Evinrude, or..
..you could ask a local dealer if you can do a port map/3D casting form - from an instructional unit..
Sort of!
Playing about with a Zenoah 40cc strimmer engine as a hack just now but intend applying what I learn to marine outboards (the closest 2T configuration to a usable road engine). The intention is to use them on the road. I have Mercury 1150s and a 650 to hand. Old tech, but not entirely without merit.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Pinger wrote:
03 May 2017, 12:04
J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 11:47


Like the BRP/Evinrude - noted on this very page, P?
Try an outboard/marine forum, &/or seek the info from source.. via BRP/Evinrude, or..
..you could ask a local dealer if you can do a port map/3D casting form - from an instructional unit..
Sort of!
Playing about with a Zenoah 40cc strimmer engine as a hack just now but intend applying what I learn to marine outboards (the closest 2T configuration to a usable road engine). The intention is to use them on the road. I have Mercury 1150s and a 650 to hand. Old tech, but not entirely without merit.
Might be worth checking the Orbital Corp archive too, P..
.. AFAIR, they not only adapted ex-outboard 2T engines to automotive use, but ran soft-tune single cylinder test mills..
..in motorcycle chassis, making direct comparison with a then current 4T equivalent.. & published the results..

Also, get a ride on a regular production 2T road or trail bike.. ..while it will be 'peppy' compared to a 4T of same cc..
..unless it has been severely got at..
.. it'll still be a very soft/easy powered machine.. at least.. ..compared with real-deal competition 2T units..


Adit: As a matter of interest P, I checked the Phillip Is. G.P. circuit best lap times for some 250cc bikes..

Best 4T 250 production: Kawasaki @ 1:59.6 (in 2014), best 2T 250 production: Aprilia (Suzuki mill) 1:44.9,
& for real contrast, 2T 250 G.P. race bike: Gilera ( Aprilia mill) 1.32.0...
Last edited by J.A.W. on 03 May 2017, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Pinger
Pinger
9
Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 12:16



Might be worth checking the Orbital Corp archive too, P..
.. AFAIR, they not only adapted ex-outboard 2T engines to automotive use, but ran soft-tune single cylinder test mills..
..in motorcycle chassis, making direct comparison with a then current 4T equivalent.. & published the results..

Also, get a ride on a regular production 2T road or trail bike.. ..while it will be 'peppy' compared to a 4T of same cc..
..unless it has been severely got at..
.. it'll still be a very soft/easy powered machine.. at least.. ..compared with real-deal competition 2T units..
I read most of the Orbital lit a while back. For very simple engines the DI hardware is an additional complication and not always applicable (to small hand held tool engines etc) hence me giving carbs another hearing.

Faffed around with 2T trials and the the likes enough to know just how torquey low down a stroker can be. Also have a Mk1 RG250 so know just how peaky a stroker can be!

A piece of lit I came across is a SAE paper by Sandia Nat' Lab' detailing LDV photography of in cylinder gas velocities in a test engine (94.4 x 95.3mm) running at 800rpm (MPS = 2.5m/s) in which they saw in cylinder gas velocities of 60m/s. They were comparing blower and crankcase scavenging hence the air supply was simulated to each. Such high in cylinder gas velocities from such a miserly MPS. Presumably they considered that relevant.

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Pinger wrote:
03 May 2017, 11:08
Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 04:24

I was going to suggest you search for published papers on cfd research identifying the relationship. They may have models you can use. Unfortunately I got distracted, didn't follow my normal "What's important now" helping someone is more important than correcting biased opinions. Now their negatively affecting others with their opinions.
Cheers Muniix. I will seek out the type of papers you suggest. I suspect though that they will be dealing in the standard symmetrically timed transfer port opening/closing - whereas I am deviating from that script. Still, any info gleaned may be worthwhile (snippets are all!).
At the same time I'm preparing to test UBHC emissions at idle (initially - under load to follow) with varying degrees of transfer asymmetry. Results from that should tell me if I'm on the right track.
If you can get some pressure and temperature sensors in useful places, then sampling them with a cheap analyser, seeed studio have a cheep analyser that can be programmed with high sample rate, Infineon have crank angle sensor released this year and other sensors, from that you can get a better understanding of what is going on. A Sensata cylinder pressure only sensor would really help and not as expensive as a Kistler sensor though only good for 15k samples a second.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

P, you could even tap some real inexpensive analog dial pressure gauges into various points on your mill..
( inlet tract/crankcase/transfer, etc), & record the range/fluctuations - on high speed video..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Muniix
Muniix
14
Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 12:00
Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 10:54
...So a 393 with micro Hybrid came into existence, de-stroked to 300 it is the same 98x40 mm of a V10 F1 engine cylinder.

All with very good fuel efficiency due to thermodynamic and mechanical efficiency. Torque with mild hybrid torque fill is Wild...

Marc, "Wild" is a technical term?
Maybe if the engine runs 'wild', & wont respond to rpm control..

I suggest you check the significant downside to use of such extreme B X S ratio too..
.. it is hardly practicable for everyday use.. useful torque per F1 rpm range of ~15,000-19,000 wears thin, fast..
Using the term 'Wild' was an attempt to keep some confidential information internal. Peak Imep and Bmep are wild add torque fill and maximum grip force can be exceeded up to an extreme speed.

The throttle valve closes from the outside in with 6 plates, with ultra lean one operates with throttle mostly open using valve phasing to control load. This improves the inlet velocity of air entering the valve and provides swirl.

At slow piston speed as the piston descends the air rapidly accelerates to fill the new volume of the large bore straight down the middle of the cylinder forming the dual vortices which soon attach to the piston and head surface the incoming flow stabilising them. The window cross section area growing to be fully open at half way at 91 degrees, achieve maximum intake velocity at bdc+6 or 197 after tdc. Is what is seen.

If that sounds strange this is what happens with a Bishop rotary valve with offset crankshafts due to dual contra-rotating crankshaft arrangement.

The window is near full length of the bore. The valve which is phased has the inlet profile match the piston motion to achieve the ideal intake velocity as much as possible with 191 degree intake and power stroke duration combined with Jet ignition supporting ultra lean combustion. Direct injection of LPG during intake to cool the charge lowering the pressure improving volumetric efficiency after inlet closes another injection further cools charge to reduce the energy for compression, with cylinder pressure sampled by the engine management the ultra lean charge being ignited by the TJI units spraying hot combustion products towards the outside liner burning the charge from the outside in, the burn rate optimised for ideal conversion of cylinder pressure to rotational torque with least bearing friction losses as calculated by the physics engine. If greater torque is demanded then further fuel is injected at maximum heat release 12 atdc to maintain cylinder pressure as volume starts to increase the fuel flow rate is reduced due to increased cylinder pressure with the increased power stroke duration one has time to blow down pressure before bdc with the high flow of the valve. The piston motion is ideal for the conversion of pressure into work and initial burn with more constant volume immediately after tdc as the rods becoming more vertical.

So side thrust force is near zero, cancelled by the dual rods as is liner wear. Mechanical efficiency is high through low bearing friction, low cylinder pressure at tdc, reduced crankpin offset for stroke lowers inertial forces on big end. High imep and Bmep with ultra lean, very high with multi phase combustion with improved conversion to rotational torque due to more favorable crank rod angle from offset crankshafts.

Internal combustion operating efficiently.
Last edited by Muniix on 03 May 2017, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.