2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

[oetger]

https://mobile.twitter.com/redbullracin ... 49/photo/1

[Artur Craft]

You're right that turn 12 is full throttle, and I would disagree it's all about power...I think the plot above illustrates that it's not. If it was only about power, the acceleration through turn 12 would be closer to the dashed line. The respective delta between the dashed line and the unbroken lines, indicate how much the cornering speeds were limited by the chassis. The Mercedes is carrying a lot more speed through turn 12 because it is less limited by the corner, than the RB or Haas.

The delta between Mercedes and RB/Haas at T12 apex (6 km/h), is bigger than the delta between them simply accelerating along the straight full throttle (5 km/h). In any case, all cars are so far from their ideal straight line accleration speed, that if RB was producing more or less equal downforce at high speed to Mercedes, there should be no problem with matching Mercedes through there. Happy to be corrected.

Grosjean was also matching the Mercedes through turn 6. It's Turn 7 where both RB and Haas lose to Mercedes. This is consistent with the turn 12 data. The one aspect of RB13's performance that lifts it clear of the midfield cars is low speed cornering.

But given T12 is 100% throttle, how could Red Bull be limited by it's chassis? Only if they had more drag, which I don't think was the case. Mercedes had advantage on Turn 7 because it's the flat-out exit of T6, so that's why RB13 and Haas couldn't keep up, imo.

I think the delta on T12 is bigger because maybe Bottas had a better exit out of the previous corner?

[gandharva]

https://mobile.twitter.com/redbullracin ... 49/photo/1

PR nonsense. New FIA rule is, the car has to show full driver name or 3 letter shortcut AND driver number from each side.

[FrukostScones]

https://mobile.twitter.com/redbullracin ... 49/photo/1

PR nonsense. New FIA rule is, the car has to show full driver name or 3 letter shortcut AND driver number.

OK, but I think you answered it yourself.

they will just add something next to the cockpit where it always was.

[SR71]

Do we think Dan R means livery or is it a Mercerrari?
https://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/statu ... 5755030528

[f1316]

In Auto Motor und Sport a summary is given at the point Red Bull stands now
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27537.html

They state that the Barcelona update of the chassis is aimed at increasing the downforce at back of the car so they can get the rear tyres in the desired temperature range. Furthermore they question whether the new regulations have destroyed their concept (high rake, without losing too much top speed). I am curious which parts will be updated (beside confirmed base plate and front wing). They even may change their basic concept so that the b-spec can be seen as a new car.

I know this is off topic, but if the new rules have destroyed their concept of high rake etc, then I wonder if that has impacted on Mclaren as well...

Continuing the off-topic theme, Mercedes stated that they explored switching to the high rake concept for 2017 but found its potential to be limited compared with the long wheelbase concept they opted for.

I hope Red Bull's Barcelona package is as radical as the media would have us believe. Chucking them into the Ferrari / Mercedes mix should produce some incredible races.

Let's not forget that Ferrari run with high rake; clearly running with high rake this season doesn't prevent you from being fast.

[Flying JPS Lotus]

Do we think Dan R means livery or is it a Mercerrari?

https://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/statu ... 5755030528

I'm pretty sure Ricciardo's talking about the updated parts we'll be seeing on the car this weekend and not the livery

Interesting to see the car will remain the RB13 this weekend though we'll see if the new parts are enough to call it a genuine B-spec. And hopefully the updates are exotic and good enough to propel them to the front with Merc and Ferrari. But at this point I risk getting my hopes up again...

[Vasconia]

Do we think Dan R means livery or is it a Mercerrari?

https://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/statu ... 5755030528

I'm pretty sure Ricciardo's talking about the updated parts we'll be seeing on the car this weekend and not the livery

Interesting to see the car will remain the RB13 this weekend though we'll see if the new parts are enough to call it a genuine B-spec. And hopefully the updates are exotic and good enough to propel them to the front with Merc and Ferrari. But at this point I risk getting my hopes up again...

So they have copied solutions from both teams. It could work but its rather disappointing coming from RB.

[ME4ME]

So they have copied solutions from both teams. It could work but its rather disappointing coming from RB.

Lets find out before we judge now shall we. Besides, the vast majority of developments in F1 are actually based on old ideas and/or rival teams' solutions.

[Vasconia]

So they have copied solutions from both teams. It could work but its rather disappointing coming from RB.

Lets find out before we judge now shall we. Besides, the vast majority of developments in F1 are actually based on old ideas and/or rival teams' solutions.

Not denying this fact, its only that Newey uses to bring some "original" updates.

But yes, we must wait and see(analyze and judge).

[krisfx]

So they have copied solutions from both teams. It could work but its rather disappointing coming from RB.

Lets find out before we judge now shall we. Besides, the vast majority of developments in F1 are actually based on old ideas and/or rival teams' solutions.

The blown diffuser design of 2010 came from old cars. It's naive to think RB don't copy anyone imo.

[Nuvolari]

You're right that turn 12 is full throttle, and I would disagree it's all about power...I think the plot above illustrates that it's not. If it was only about power, the acceleration through turn 12 would be closer to the dashed line. The respective delta between the dashed line and the unbroken lines, indicate how much the cornering speeds were limited by the chassis. The Mercedes is carrying a lot more speed through turn 12 because it is less limited by the corner, than the RB or Haas.

The delta between Mercedes and RB/Haas at T12 apex (6 km/h), is bigger than the delta between them simply accelerating along the straight full throttle (5 km/h). In any case, all cars are so far from their ideal straight line accleration speed, that if RB was producing more or less equal downforce at high speed to Mercedes, there should be no problem with matching Mercedes through there. Happy to be corrected.

But given T12 is 100% throttle, how could Red Bull be limited by it's chassis? Only if they had more drag, which I don't think was the case. Mercedes had advantage on Turn 7 because it's the flat-out exit of T6, so that's why RB13 and Haas couldn't keep up, imo.

I think the delta on T12 is bigger because maybe Bottas had a better exit out of the previous corner?

Maybe I should give another example to illustrate my point better.



I've posted this here before (not the greatest alignment of the plot, but you get the idea). Alonso was matching the Renault through turn 7 in China, however the minimum speeds through the corner is in the range where the Renault PU should easily have power advantage over the Honda---given the popular wisdom that the Honda is nowhere close to the Renault PU. IMO, these data do not support the statement that a car that inherently has a power advantage would necessarily outperform another car, in a full throttle corner, whether it was a high/medium/low speed.

Another example: look at the speeds through turns 2 & 3 of the Bahrain circuit. The cars are full throttle through those corners too, and retain an acceleration curve very similar to their straight line acceleration. Why? The chassis is not limited by these corners in any way. What I'm saying here is simply an extension of this.

The only caveat is that the PU disadvantage is so much that the wing levels are reduced significantly to help with straight line speeds. I don't think it's the case with RB, so I would suggest the high speed performance difference between the cars is an indicator of the downforce/grip deficit. The Mercedes chassis seems particularly good in the high speed direction changes, so maybe that's playing a part here too.

[seezung]

Best looking sharkfin tbh;

[Artur Craft]

I've posted this here before (not the greatest alignment of the plot, but you get the idea). Alonso was matching the Renault through turn 7 in China, however the minimum speeds through the corner is in the range where the Renault PU should easily have power advantage over the Honda---given the popular wisdom that the Honda is nowhere close to the Renault PU. IMO, these data do not support the statement that a car that inherently has a power advantage would necessarily outperform another car, in a full throttle corner, whether it was a high/medium/low speed.

Another example: look at the speeds through turns 2 & 3 of the Bahrain circuit.

Bahrain's T2 and 3 are very low speed and aero drag will have no impact. What China's T7 data suggests to me is that either Mclaren has less drag than Renault(what is their gap on the speed trap?) or Honda is as good/bad as the Renault. Btw, I really think that Renault's PU is the factor holding back the Red Bull car, if they had a Mercedes or Ferrari PU, I think they would be fighting for wins

[Nuvolari]

Bahrain's T2 and 3 are very low speed and aero drag will have no impact. What China's T7 data suggests to me is that either Mclaren has less drag than Renault(what is their gap on the speed trap?) or Honda is as good/bad as the Renault. Btw, I really think that Renault's PU is the factor holding back the Red Bull car, if they had a Mercedes or Ferrari PU, I think they would be fighting for wins

I appreciate that Bahrain T2/T3 drag will have less of an impact, it was an extreme example. I believe, Renault will be quicker than McLaren by about 2-3 km/h at China T7 speeds. I think I'm at the point where I recognise we are going around in circles so, according to our logic:

Mercedes appears to outperform RBR in Bahrain T12 under full throttle = Power advantage for the Mercedes
McLaren appears to match Renault in China T7 under full throttle = Less drag for the McLaren
A draggy Haas that matches RBR in Bahrain T12 under full throttle = ???

I'm presuming we'd go full circle and say power advantage. The explanations seems very convenient and easily modified to suit what we want to believe given we don't have the full picture, so I think I'll let the observers make up their minds about the data I've posted. I agree that Renault PU is not as powerful as the Mercedes (hence the comparison with the straight line acceleration curves), but we are not back to 2015 when RB had to go to extreme lengths to make up for the power deficit. I hope RBR will find some performance from their package to fight with Mercedes/Ferrari. Three teams fighting for wins is definitely better than two, I'd welcome that as a racing fan.