The "Shield" cockpit protection device - 2017 evolution

[Andres125sx]

I'm still waiting for an example of a serious injury / death caused by an open cockpit.

Did you really pause and think before you posted this Just a Fan?

Yes. None of the deaths described were "caused by an open cockpit". That's a fact. A semantic point, perhaps, but I think it's important to underline that open cockpits have not caused driver deaths.

So you´re going to hide behind semantics?

Ok, I´ll rephrase it:

Can you please provide some example of some serious injury/death wich could have been prevented WITHOUT a closed cockpit at any category?


I can provide you several examples of deaths, serious injuries and close calls wich could have been prevented without an open cockpit, you just need to read this thread.

Can you provide me some proving your point?

[Andres125sx]

No matter whether they are freak accidents or not - they actually aren't as rare as we want them to be, and even if a solution couldn't have saved a certain driver in the past, if it can save others in the future, it's worth it.

This right here is the key point that is causing so much of an issue here;
How "rare" do these incidents need to be before it is deemed "acceptable"?

I think you hitted the nail in the head right here =D>

But I do feel somewhat safe in assuming that the people who say that these incidents AREN'T rare enough today, would most likely still be saying so even with a halo or shield solution. And so it begs the question, where does it all end?

But not here I´m afraid


I seriously think that´s the only remaining part of F1 wich is really risking drivers lifes. Without open cockpits I think drivers would be REALLY safe, as there has not been any other death, serious injury or close call in F1 in many many years apart from these caused by open cockpits. None

Best examples are Alonso in Australia past seson where his car was totalled after a huge crash but he was able to go out of the car by himself despite the broken rib, or Verstappen in Monaco when he crashed with Grosjean and went directly into the barrier at St Devote without braking as his front wheels were broken and the car was sliding over the floor, receiving a frontal impact at very high speed where there´s no runoff area at all. In Alonso case that´s proving how safe are F1 cars, and in Verstappen case that´s proving how safe are F1 tracks, or Techpro barriers to be more precise, as they can absorb huge amounts of energy, even if a driver goes directly into the barriers without braking and without runoff area.


So no, this is not a witch hunt, this is just an attempt to solve the only remaining dangerous part of F1 cars nowadays. IMO obviously

[Just_a_fan]

Can you please provide some example of some serious injury/death wich could have been prevented WITHOUT a closed cockpit at any category?


I can provide you several examples of deaths, serious injuries and close calls wich could have been prevented without an open cockpit, you just need to read this thread.

Can you provide me some proving your point?

There have been numerous driver deaths in enclosed cars over the years. Being open or closed would have made no difference.

I don't doubt that a canopy would help in one or two accidents. Would it have made other accidents worse? That's the real question.

You are so focused on "canopy is the only answer" that you're not thinking "what if?".

[Just_a_fan]

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Best examples are Alonso in Australia past seson where his car was totalled after a huge crash but he was able to go out of the car by himself despite the broken rib,

And if the car had been fitted with a lid? He would have been trapped until rescued. Had that car caught fire...

[FW17]

[

Best examples are Alonso in Australia past seson where his car was totalled after a huge crash but he was able to go out of the car by himself despite the broken rib,

And if the car had been fitted with a lid? He would have been trapped until rescued. Had that car caught fire...

If he was unconscious and a fire outside, wont it be helpful with a canopy?

[Just_a_fan]

[

Best examples are Alonso in Australia past seson where his car was totalled after a huge crash but he was able to go out of the car by himself despite the broken rib,

And if the car had been fitted with a lid? He would have been trapped until rescued. Had that car caught fire...

If he was unconscious and a fire outside, wont it be helpful with a canopy?

Who knows? That's the point I'm making.

[FW17]

And if the car had been fitted with a lid? He would have been trapped until rescued. Had that car caught fire...

If he was unconscious and a fire outside, wont it be helpful with a canopy?

Who knows? That's the point I'm making.

In all situations with a canopy driver is safer

If in certain situations driver is not able to get out without outside aid, it is ok, he is not in any danger.

[Just_a_fan]

If he was unconscious and a fire outside, wont it be helpful with a canopy?

Who knows? That's the point I'm making.

In all situations with a canopy driver is safer

If in certain situations driver is not able to get out without outside aid, it is ok, he is not in any danger.

Oh, that's ok then. So when he's unconscious and has a compromised airway and the canopy has jammed preventing medical access, it's ok because he's safe in there.

This is my issue: some people aren't running the problem, they've just picked a solution and thus that is the only solution.

[Formula Wrong]

Can you please provide some example of some serious injury/death wich could have been prevented WITHOUT a closed cockpit at any category?


I can provide you several examples of deaths, serious injuries and close calls wich could have been prevented without an open cockpit, you just need to read this thread.

Can you provide me some proving your point?

There have been numerous driver deaths in enclosed cars over the years. Being open or closed would have made no difference.

But they didn't die because of the closed cockpit did they? Of course there have been many deadly accidents with closed cockpits but I can't recall any where the fact that the cockpit wasn't open was the important factor.

I don't doubt that a canopy would help in one or two accidents. Would it have made other accidents worse? That's the real question.

You are so focused on "canopy is the only answer" that you're not thinking "what if?".

"what if" always has to be considered, true, but I'm sure that whatever solution the FIA will introduce in the end, they will consider as many "what if" scenarios as possible.
Personally I can't think of a scenario where a canopy would make things worse in terms of driver injuries.

[FW17]

Oh, that's ok then. So when he's unconscious and has a compromised airway and the canopy has jammed preventing medical access, it's ok because he's safe in there.

This is my issue: some people aren't running the problem, they've just picked a solution and thus that is the only solution.

You are being silly

Same can happen to a drivers helmet or seatbelt buckle.

[Andres125sx]

Can you please provide some example of some serious injury/death wich could have been prevented WITHOUT a closed cockpit at any category?


I can provide you several examples of deaths, serious injuries and close calls wich could have been prevented without an open cockpit, you just need to read this thread.

Can you provide me some proving your point?

There have been numerous driver deaths in enclosed cars over the years. Being open or closed would have made no difference.

I don't doubt that a canopy would help in one or two accidents. Would it have made other accidents worse? That's the real question.

Exactly, and that´s the reason I´m trying to compare, but none of you "canopy haters" (please don´t take it wrong) have been able to point me some case where the canopy made it worse, while I´ve been able to point several examples where the open cockpit made it worse

You are so focused on "canopy is the only answer" that you're not thinking "what if?".

What??

I´m asking for posible problems constantly, but none of you could provide any yet.

Fire is far from a problem nowadays, as deformation of cockpits wich would trap the driver inside, because carbon fiber does not deform, but break

[Andres125sx]

[

Best examples are Alonso in Australia past seson where his car was totalled after a huge crash but he was able to go out of the car by himself despite the broken rib,

And if the car had been fitted with a lid? He would have been trapped until rescued. Had that car caught fire...

So two IFs. What if he get trapped AND IF the car caught fire?

Well in that case that´d be a problem but, how many F1 cars have caught fire after a crash lately? What was last and when? Fair question, I can´t remind...

[Just_a_fan]

I´m asking for posible problems constantly, but none of you could provide any yet.

Fire is far from a problem nowadays, as deformation of cockpits wich would trap the driver inside, because carbon fiber does not deform, but break

The single biggest issue is that the canopy absolutely must never fail. It must never come loose when the car is being driven. It must never fall off when being driven. It must never come loose in an accident. It must never impact a driver or a marshall during an accident. It must never jam or otherwise prevent immediate escape or emergency medical access. If it fails in anyway then it will cause an accident. In some cases a failure will result in serious injury or death.

We also have the issue of the driver. He will need to be cooled because he will dangerously (potentially fatally) overheat in an enclosed box. That is probably going to need to be a mechanical system. Failure of such a system is going to have to be a black flag issue, particularly at the really hot events. A driver being macho to the point of severe hyperthermia is a death waiting to happen.

The screen is going to have to be shaped / treated to ensure water and/or oil and track debris can't impede a driver's vision. This is different to a driver's visor which has tear offs. All other windscreen racing series have wipers as well as screen tear offs on the screen. So F1 will need wipers. Failure of the wiper in a wet race will have to be a black flag for that driver.

All mechanical systems are prone to failure. The canopy mechanism will have failures. One or more of those failures may (perhaps even will) result in serious injury or death to a driver or marshall.

All of this is before you start looking at how to package a canopy that is large enough to be safe for the driver inside, light enough to be easily removed yet strong enough to be effective. Look at WEC for the space requirements - the cockpit must allow removal of a driver's helmet without movement of his neck, for example.

I'm not against canopies, I'm against thoughtless knee-jerk "something must be done and this something is it".

[Jolle]

a few thoughts:
- because of a huge investment in safety, fire (on track) isn't a hazard anymore. The "get out in 5 seconds" rule is one from the old days, when fuel was in riveted aluminium chambers around the drivers legs.
- a full canopy is beautiful, but adds a lot of weight, lots of difficulties with weather (heat, rain) and might add other risks (build up of smoke/toxics because of a mechanical failure/short)
- the huge investment in safety seems a bit pointless when the divers head is sticking out of the cockpit.
- the last few deaths on track where car design was at "fault" (and not procedures like with JB) were that drivers were hit in the head.
- the best safety measures are almost always the most simple ones.

A halo device of some kind seems almost logical. It doesn't interfere with racing, adds almost no weight, doesn't interfere with driving the car and it's still an open cockpit. The only downside, it doesn't look "sharp" yet.

The other upside to a bar/halo kind of device, it can be implemented quite rapidly to other racing series, like F3, F4, etc, where kids are racing.

[FW17]

I'm not against canopies, I'm against thoughtless knee-jerk "something must be done and this something is it".

What knee jerk??

They have been doing their research on this since 2009, and still reluctant in finding a solution

This is just another case of BE not wanting change to what he likes. He went great lengths to dismiss the turbo engines because it did not sound right.
Brought in wider tyres coz he thought it would make the cars faster.