2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

[Artur Craft]

In the end, we can just speculate and your post summed it up!

Funny that Verstappen was faster than Hamilton on S1 and, with Ricciardo's S3, he would've been similar to Vettel.

Given the gaps of the top two to the other cars, I think they are hiding their pace but maybe so is RB and they could be quite close.

[ENGINE TUNER]

In the end, we can just speculate and your post summed it up!

Funny that Verstappen was faster than Hamilton on S1 and, with Ricciardo's S3, he would've been similar to Vettel.

Given the gaps of the top two to the other cars, I think they are hiding their pace but maybe so is RB and they could be quite close.

Earlier, Hamilton had a strong lap going and then lost all pace in S3, so he may have backed off a little in S1 in order to keep the tires alive for the whole lap. These tires seem prone to quickly overheating.

[Artur Craft]

What is the source for the alleged problems that Red Bull is said to have with correlation?

Ricciardo said this after FPs:
"We have made some progress but we knew it wasn't going to put us up with Mercedes or anything," Ricciardo said. "I feel we can still perfect what we have got, get a few more tenths out of it.

"Obviously we want more, but we are in line with what we predicted."

Mercedes brought a big package and was 1.2s faster on the race sim, so that is completely out of reach. We need to see how big Renault's PU upgrade will be, on Canada. The best they can do with the current one is be a threat to Ferrari, who seems to have fallen behind Mercedes, considerably.

[gandharva]

What is the source for the alleged problems that Red Bull is said to have with correlation?

It was the suspension ban that hurt them. Newey more or less confirmed this in an AMUS interview today.

Mercedes brought a big package and was 1.2s faster on the race sim, so that is completely out of reach. We need to see how big Renault's PU upgrade will be, on Canada. The best they can do with the current one is be a threat to Ferrari, who seems to have fallen behind Mercedes, considerably.

Season is pretty much done now. Even Ferrari or RBR would need 2-3 month to bring an update that big. Let alone midfield teams... Mercedes has a huge development lead. Due to their dominance in the past seasons they had the opportunity to throw all their ressources on the next car as soon as possible.

[Quantum]

What is the source for the alleged problems that Red Bull is said to have with correlation?

It was the suspension ban that hurt them. Newey more or less confirmed this in an AMUS interview today.

That was and still is my view too, said as much months ago. The discrepancies in loss of time to Mercedes and Ferrari from last year cannot be the PU, even though the PU is slightly off the leading Merc/Ferrari units.
My reasoning on this is comparing the the times in fastest trim(Qualy) to the Renault factory team. A margin of around 2 seconds, has been reduced to something like 0.3 seconds.

Even considering how far behind Renault are coming, law of diminished returns cannot in itself explain a near 1.7 second gain.

[Artur Craft]

The discrepancies in loss of time to Mercedes and Ferrari from last year cannot be the PU, even though the PU is slightly off the leading Merc/Ferrari units.
My reasoning on this is comparing the the times in fastest trim(Qualy) to the Renault factory team. A margin of around 2 seconds, has been reduced to something like 0.3 seconds.

The comparison to Renault, on qualifying, is very misleading, imo. Red Bull is an awful lot faster than Renault on the race. About the Renault PU being just "slightly off", I suggest you to check out this link here to see how much Hulkenberg car loses to Mercedes and Ferrari, on the straights of Melbourne. And you can't blame it on higher downforce/drag because the Renault is terrible on the fast corners.

[Quantum]

The discrepancies in loss of time to Mercedes and Ferrari from last year cannot be the PU, even though the PU is slightly off the leading Merc/Ferrari units.
My reasoning on this is comparing the the times in fastest trim(Qualy) to the Renault factory team. A margin of around 2 seconds, has been reduced to something like 0.3 seconds.

The comparison to Renault, on qualifying, is very misleading, imo. Red Bull is an awful lot faster than Renault on the race. About the Renault PU being just "slightly off", I suggest you to check out this link here to see how much Hulkenberg car loses to Mercedes and Ferrari, on the straights of Melbourne. And you can't blame it on higher downforce/drag because the Renault is terrible on the fast corners.

You can postulate on terminologies if you like, I'm indifferent. The message is clear, the chassis and aero are bigger factors in Red Bull's deficit at this moment in time.

[rayden]

The renault chassis was an absolute POS last season though. Them gaining a huge chunk of time on everyone was expected imo.

[Quantum]

The renault chassis was an absolute POS last season though. Them gaining a huge chunk of time on everyone was expected imo.

The diminished returns I was referring to. The problem with this,is that it does not explain what Red Bull have lost.
And Red bull have lost out to most teams, including all the Renault powered ones.

[Artur Craft]

You can postulate on terminologies if you like, I'm indifferent. The message is clear, the chassis and aero are bigger factors in Red Bull's deficit at this moment in time.

Well, the qualifying on an aero/chassis demanding track quite convincingly proved that the message was not clear and, in fact, the reality is closer to what I was saying(sorry, I'm forced to pathetically brag myself a bit now ).

Renault factory car was nowhere and slower than most Mercedes-powered, Haas and even Toro Rosso and Mclaren/Honda

Red Bull was there, right where I predicted, within 0.5s off pole

Is 1.7s faster than Renault and 0.5s from Mercedes/Ferrari proof enough for you guys to believe that with a competitive PU, Red Bull would be fighting for pole/wins, at the very least on some tracks? I dare say they would even dominate the field on a few tracks, given the best PU

[Quantum]

You can postulate on terminologies if you like, I'm indifferent. The message is clear, the chassis and aero are bigger factors in Red Bull's deficit at this moment in time.

Well, the qualifying on an aero/chassis demanding track quite convincingly proved that the message was not clear and, in fact, the reality is closer to what I was saying(sorry, I'm forced to pathetically brag myself a bit now ).

Renault factory car was nowhere and slower than most Mercedes-powered, Haas and even Toro Rosso and Mclaren/Honda

Red Bull was there, right where I predicted, within 0.5s off pole

Is 1.7s faster than Renault and 0.5s from Mercedes/Ferrari proof enough for you guys to believe that with a competitive PU, Red Bull would be fighting for pole/wins, at the very least on some tracks? I dare say they would even dominate the field on a few tracks, given the best PU

It was an impressive time by Verstappen, but we'll see if they can maintain this in the race. What can be said is that Red Bull have made a clear step forward in relation to everyone, with their upgrade making the difference. Renault in fairness did only bring some new bargeboards.

Also, nobody is stating Red Bull would not be winning without the best PU. The Renault PU is a competitive unit, Verstappen clocked fourth quickest sector 3 speed in Qualifying(F1 live timing).
The point is, it does not need not be the "best" to be deemed "competitive".
The suspension ban is what left them 0.4 seconds ahead of Renault, and they were left reeling for the first few races.

But the red herring you are missing is that Red bull made up 1.2 seconds from Russia to Spain relative to pole. Yet you are adamant the engine is the problem, it being the same from Russia to Spain.

[Artur Craft]

On Bahrain, I think RB was like 0.7s(or a tenth more) behind pole, then massively slower on Russia. Most of these things are track characteristics related. Maybe, that's a huge maybe btw, RB could even be closer in Monaco and Ricciardo or Verstappen could steal pole.

People were bashing RB's upgraded car on the tech thread but you don't need a fancy looking car to be quick. Red Bull can't afford to shove all the winglets, turning vanes and vortex generators, that the can, into it's car because the drag combined with the PU will hold them too much on the straights. What's really a decisive point for this team/car is the Canadian GP and how big that Renault upgrade will be

Tyre wear will be big, let's see how the race goes for them

[daniellammers]

I think this might be the GP from where Verstappen will dominate Danny Ric.

Or am I too much of a fanboy now?

[Sieper]

No, I AM a verstappen fanboy and I have been comparing DannyRic's and Max' results over the passed year. On more flowing tracks Max is usually quicker (i am thinking because these are more akin his karting experiences) but on tracks with more hard breaking and 90 degrees corners usually Danny is in front (If only just) i am thinking because Daniël has more experiences/still is better in getting the optimal result on braking hard at the last moment as an F1 car can do. I am really curious to see how Monaco qually will go this year.

Overall Max is getting closer and closer but Daniël almost always is able to up the ante on the moment suprème, he can pull out a near perfect lap under the gun on almost every occasion, a great feat of his.

Still Max is improving and improving, in almost all trainings, race pace, race craft he has already surpassed Daniël. In sector 3 the way he kissed the kurbs is just incredible, we saw Bottas luck out there but Verstappen has so much feel in his but, he is so daring, full of confidence. Dannyric was wondering how he lost so much time in sector3, I think I know.

Still Daniël is a great driver also and I don't think the qualy battles are over. The rest Max seems already ahead (to me, but I am biased).

[rayden]

I just think Ricciardo is going through a bit of a slump at the moment, it happens to all drivers. I think he has been struggling to get comfortable with this new gen of cars compared to Verstappen.

When he finds his form again I can't see there being much difference between the two. Other than Max being better in the wet. Max has the extra 1% when it comes to racing, Ricciardo has it when it comes to raw quali pace. But I do think if either one was paired with another driver they would be dominating them on both saturday and sunday (with exception of your hamiltons/vettels/alonsos)

These 2 are the future stars of the sport once your hamiltons/vettels move on imo.