Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[amho]

General assumption right on is that Renault is 35-40 bhp down on Merc/Ferrari in qualifying and Honda another 80 bhp.

So that chassis is performing quite ok. Let's hope Honda (with support of Merc) can find another 60 bhp then they could become best of the rest.

I hope Mercedes won't help Honda.
Honda should find the solution themselves.

[Dimi]

If honda bought some testing-simulation tools from avl, it means that they receiving help from mercedes? I cant understand why mercedes would help honda, are they so useless?
Could all this roumors be a sample of good mercedes marketing through some sh__ty journalists?

[etusch]

If honda bought some testing-simulation tools from avl, it means that they receiving help from mercedes? I cant understand why mercedes would help honda, are they so useless?
Could all this roumors be a sample of good mercedes marketing through some sh__ty journalists?

I also think that they are doing dirty mercedes marketing, and in the other hand they are pushing Honda to give more commercial to the media. I see a youtube video containing a question like that; can honda catch europian manufacturers. They are looking this a west - east fight.
I don't know if honda want to take information for reliability of merc like mgu-h and I don't know if they do something for honda. But I don't expect anything apart from that. Especially on power side.
Honda is already working on an update. They must be took some path. I think from this stage they need just good testing procedure.

[mwillems]

If honda bought some testing-simulation tools from avl, it means that they receiving help from mercedes? I cant understand why mercedes would help honda, are they so useless?
Could all this roumors be a sample of good mercedes marketing through some sh__ty journalists?

I also think that they are doing dirty mercedes marketing, and in the other hand they are pushing Honda to give more commercial to the media. I see a youtube video containing a question like that; can honda catch europian manufacturers. They are looking this a west - east fight.
I don't know if honda want to take information for reliability of merc like mgu-h and I don't know if they do something for honda. But I don't expect anything apart from that. Especially on power side.
Honda is already working on an update. They must be took some path. I think from this stage they need just good testing procedure.

IF Merc are helping Honda, It might not even be F1 technology that Honda give in return. It might even be that Honda allow Merc to use a Honda patent in road car tech or any other wild speculation you could think of. Whilst it could be to learn more about Honda F1 tech, I wouldn't assume that it is in fact what Honda offer in return.

[JuanjoTS]

To hear all the cars live today, I will give my point of view, the sound of the MER and FER is like a street car without exhaust muffler, then REN seems to have a small exhaust muffler, finally HON is heard as if Was with a huge muffler. Obviously they do not carry mufflers at all, but it is the sensation that comes from listening and comparing them. Honda has no explosions as powerful as MER or FER, over 40 laps of the 66 has the fuel-saving tail light on.

In live the differences are heard much better, when passing a MER or a FER to 300 meters you feel the vibration of its power, when happens Honda the sound is very soft ... we could think that it is question of which Honda has a great turbo that Attenuates the sound of escape, but no, the most brutal turbo has MER, it is incredible the whistles that gives its turbo. It only occurs to me that they are working with a compression in the cylinder much lower than FER or MER.

[drunkf1fan]

Really wanted to see Alonso's race pace under normal conditions, unfortunately he got stuck behind slower cars after the messy start and couldn't overtake. But the lap times were consistent and he was lapping really fast during the end of the race, maybe Honda finally fixed some fuel consumption issues (?)

Not really, he was two laps down meaning he had 2 laps of extra fuel he wouldn't be using = less fuel saving. He was also one of the last to pit to get off the slow mediums while, I can't recall how many but probably the majority of other drivers were on mediums for the last stint. He was comparably faster but under the circumstances that isn't very surprising. Judging by his times I'd say tires made his last stint fast and he probably used most of his extra fuel in that final lap to put in a fast one.

Today can't be used to judge of fuel consumption is better or not.

[drunkf1fan]

Now Alo is almost at Ferrari/Merc pace- how come? Could it be that he's ignoring fuel saving?

At some laps, the laptime is good, Fernando can achieve 1.23.894 on the last lap.
Looks like they battery didn't charged well, he got 1.24 - 1.25s once every 1-3 laps.

He was probably using qualy mode on his fresh tyres.

Was behind boh Saubers when he pitted the last time to try for fastest lap.

And Sauber have something McLaren don't - points.

As previous post yeah, he basically did a glory stint/lap at the end, did in Abu Dhabi in 2015 and a couple other places. Way back where he was, no chance of points, may as well but you can't take the lap time seriously. Fresher tires than most, and two laps of extra fuel to dump into a fast lap.

No one else is interested in that. For the slower teams even the positions outside the points can matter though mostly for drivers trying to show they can do well and get to a better team. The teams in the points can't pit and drop places for a glory lap. Mclaren with a big budget and proven driver have nothing to lose when they are outside the points. So many people get duped by a fast lap from Mclaren/Alonso though, they suddenly think the team has pace. After 2015 abu dhabi people were convinced it meant Mclaren had fixed everything and would be great in 2016, load of people on various racing forums think his 4th fastest lap means they have great pace now. I wish they wouldn't do it because frankly they are just misleading fans and disappointing them when nothing comes out of it.

[ronanharris09]

[tweet]https://t.co/ahnLJNNxQ1[/tweet]

[JuanjoTS]

Now Alo is almost at Ferrari/Merc pace- how come? Could it be that he's ignoring fuel saving?

At some laps, the laptime is good, Fernando can achieve 1.23.894 on the last lap.
Looks like they battery didn't charged well, he got 1.24 - 1.25s once every 1-3 laps.

He was probably using qualy mode on his fresh tyres.

Was behind boh Saubers when he pitted the last time to try for fastest lap.

And Sauber have something McLaren don't - points.

As previous post yeah, he basically did a glory stint/lap at the end, did in Abu Dhabi in 2015 and a couple other places. Way back where he was, no chance of points, may as well but you can't take the lap time seriously. Fresher tires than most, and two laps of extra fuel to dump into a fast lap.

No one else is interested in that. For the slower teams even the positions outside the points can matter though mostly for drivers trying to show they can do well and get to a better team. The teams in the points can't pit and drop places for a glory lap. Mclaren with a big budget and proven driver have nothing to lose when they are outside the points. So many people get duped by a fast lap from Mclaren/Alonso though, they suddenly think the team has pace. After 2015 abu dhabi people were convinced it meant Mclaren had fixed everything and would be great in 2016, load of people on various racing forums think his 4th fastest lap means they have great pace now. I wish they wouldn't do it because frankly they are just misleading fans and disappointing them when nothing comes out of it.

I do not agree at all, at the beginning of the race with the same tires and load was faster than bull rosso, has, williams ... just that he was not fast enough in front to be able to overtake and he was resigned to stay behind . Consumption is their main lack, the second the power, if I found 20 hp with a reasonable consumption I think they would be with RedBull.

Could you explain that higher consumption and lower power than Honda worked with less compression in the cylinders?

My reference is sound, as I explain above MER and FERR sound much more to free exhaust without muffler, Honda sounds much less, it is as if it had a muffler in the exhaust (evidently no muffler, they are words to explain the feelings it produces Listen to the different sounds of different cars) I've heard hundreds of times the engines in videos, but it's not the same as live on the circuit, there you feel the vibrations, that video you can not appreciate.

[godlameroso]

Possibly, that makes sense at least.

[drunkf1fan]

He was probably using qualy mode on his fresh tyres.

Was behind boh Saubers when he pitted the last time to try for fastest lap.

And Sauber have something McLaren don't - points.

As previous post yeah, he basically did a glory stint/lap at the end, did in Abu Dhabi in 2015 and a couple other places. Way back where he was, no chance of points, may as well but you can't take the lap time seriously. Fresher tires than most, and two laps of extra fuel to dump into a fast lap.

No one else is interested in that. For the slower teams even the positions outside the points can matter though mostly for drivers trying to show they can do well and get to a better team. The teams in the points can't pit and drop places for a glory lap. Mclaren with a big budget and proven driver have nothing to lose when they are outside the points. So many people get duped by a fast lap from Mclaren/Alonso though, they suddenly think the team has pace. After 2015 abu dhabi people were convinced it meant Mclaren had fixed everything and would be great in 2016, load of people on various racing forums think his 4th fastest lap means they have great pace now. I wish they wouldn't do it because frankly they are just misleading fans and disappointing them when nothing comes out of it.

I do not agree at all, at the beginning of the race with the same tires and load was faster than bull rosso, has, williams ... just that he was not fast enough in front to be able to overtake and he was resigned to stay behind . Consumption is their main lack, the second the power, if I found 20 hp with a reasonable consumption I think they would be with RedBull.

Could you explain that higher consumption and lower power than Honda worked with less compression in the cylinders?

My reference is sound, as I explain above MER and FERR sound much more to free exhaust without muffler, Honda sounds much less, it is as if it had a muffler in the exhaust (evidently no muffler, they are words to explain the feelings it produces Listen to the different sounds of different cars) I've heard hundreds of times the engines in videos, but it's not the same as live on the circuit, there you feel the vibrations, that video you can not appreciate.

Both Mclaren's stopped early, Van only did 12 laps on mediums, Alonso only did 20 laps on mediums. They were both imo on a 3 stop strategy throughout, so sure they had better comparable pace. The guys ahead if him were stuck behind cars in front of them. Once Mag pitted, who was slow, Grosjean went by and improved his lap times. Alonso did 12 laps while Grosjean went to 19 on those tires. He came out and was behind Kvyat who stopped on lap one to ditch the mediums, he then did a long stint on the softs. Alonso only stayed with him for 10 laps before he started to drop significant time on Kvyat. He was pushing his tires hard on a stint about 1/2 the length on the soft tire with Kvyat starting with a heavy car on those tires. Even then after 10 laps ALonso fell off and had to pit soon after. That suggests again that Alonso was pushing 3 stop strategy and could barely keep up with those he was close to before the tires went away. That isn't an indication of pace at all, keeping up with the guys ahead but stopping more often isn't faster. There is a reason he ended up 190 seconds off the lead by the end and didn't hold back, save tire life and then make up time once in free air, because the car wasn't capable of it.

after that he was 6 seconds clear of ericsson, he did close the gap but again he burned his tires out doing it. Ericsson was stuck behind a slow Stroll, Alonso closed the gap but a few laps after catching he pitted for soft tires and despite being on pretty new softs vs 20 lap old mediums he only gained about 8-9 seconds on Ericsson with what should have been 1-1.5second a lap faster tires at least by that point.

There is very little evidence he was significantly held up, it just looks like pushing harder to keep up with the guys ahead and as a result having to pit much sooner. If those pitstops weren't required and if the lap times didn't obviously drop off before the pit stops then they would have pitted at a better time to put him in clear air and we'd have seen him gaining places if the car was capable of it.

[JuanjoTS]

It has not been so bad

[wuzak]

Both Mclaren's stopped early, Van only did 12 laps on mediums, Alonso only did 20 laps on mediums. They were both imo on a 3 stop strategy throughout, so sure they had better comparable pace. The guys ahead if him were stuck behind cars in front of them. Once Mag pitted, who was slow, Grosjean went by and improved his lap times. Alonso did 12 laps while Grosjean went to 19 on those tires. He came out and was behind Kvyat who stopped on lap one to ditch the mediums, he then did a long stint on the softs. Alonso only stayed with him for 10 laps before he started to drop significant time on Kvyat. He was pushing his tires hard on a stint about 1/2 the length on the soft tire with Kvyat starting with a heavy car on those tires. Even then after 10 laps ALonso fell off and had to pit soon after. That suggests again that Alonso was pushing 3 stop strategy and could barely keep up with those he was close to before the tires went away. That isn't an indication of pace at all, keeping up with the guys ahead but stopping more often isn't faster. There is a reason he ended up 190 seconds off the lead by the end and didn't hold back, save tire life and then make up time once in free air, because the car wasn't capable of it.

after that he was 6 seconds clear of ericsson, he did close the gap but again he burned his tires out doing it. Ericsson was stuck behind a slow Stroll, Alonso closed the gap but a few laps after catching he pitted for soft tires and despite being on pretty new softs vs 20 lap old mediums he only gained about 8-9 seconds on Ericsson with what should have been 1-1.5second a lap faster tires at least by that point.

There is very little evidence he was significantly held up, it just looks like pushing harder to keep up with the guys ahead and as a result having to pit much sooner. If those pitstops weren't required and if the lap times didn't obviously drop off before the pit stops then they would have pitted at a better time to put him in clear air and we'd have seen him gaining places if the car was capable of it.

3 stops was theoretically faster than a 2 stop race.

But I think that the original plan for Alonso was 2 stop, but they changed that when he was being held up in the early stages.

It is worth noting that Ericsson pitted for the first time on lap 18, Alonso on lap 12.

Ericsson passed Alonso on track between their first and second stops. Alonso stopped a second time on lap 31. Ericsson responded and pitted a lap later. The difference was that Ericsson finished the race on that set of tyres, Alonso came in for some soft tyres late to try some glory runs.

Wehrlein pitted for the one and only time on lap 33.

[wuzak]

Top speed:
Alonso: 332.6km/h (9th)
Vandoorne: 327.4km/h (14th)

Massa: 339.6km/h (1st)
Grosjean: 338.9km/h (2nd)
Hamilton 338.4km/h (3rd)
Vettel: 334.9km/h (5th)
Ericsson: 334.1km/h (7th)

It has to be said that these speeds benefited a lot from the slipstream. Vettel had the highest speed in qualifying at 326.5km/h.

Wehrlein, who didn't seem to have got into anybody's DRS, only had a top speed of 314.9km/h, beating only Hulkenberg, Raikkonen and Verstappen, whose speeds were recorded just afterteh start and were way down.

[J.A.W.]

I think its a promising sign that Alonso was able to ( even if under 'consolation' circumstances) put up some good lap times,
& sans major failure by the Honda engine unit..