2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

[Vasconia]

The new aero rules have reduced DRS to what it was intended to do and I'm in favour of it until the rules change such that cars can follow much closer and not be so affected by the wake. I'm not going to waste my Sundays watching a multicoloured procession of cars.

I tend to agree. Now we see more normal overtakes using the DRS(unless you have a McLaren and everybody overtakes you 100 meters before). With the current rules Barcelona would have been an endless procession.

[Wass85]

I want to bring the attentio of you all to this qualifying analysis if not posted already. What does it say about the engine power, traction and relative low med high speeds of the cars?

https://streamable.com/nvsmo

The ferrari seemed to have better top end acceleration and downforce. Amazing thru the high speed corners and the wider lines that Vettel could take.
Really, the Ferrari was faster here and the pole was vettels but he screwed up the exit chicane as he said. What i am excited about is Mercedes low speed performance for Monaco.

I'm a little confused here, watching the onboard footage of Hamilton and Vettel shows that the footage of their telemetry and their onboard footage doesn't tally up, looking at their onboard laps Vettel doesn't have anywhere near the gap that he has on their telemetry footage.

http://youtu.be/6gX_aqx-P3s

[ClarkBT11]

On Hamilton's 28th lap on the soft tyre he set the fastest lap of the race very good tyre management. On the scales, he saw that he had lost 4½ pounds in weight. Hamilton had decided against carrying drinks in his car, to save on overall load no wonder he was panting over the radio their definitely earning the money this year.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

We are just short of having the best experience of F1. I think the following would help.

1. Make those cars another 3 seconds faster. Let's see the men standing out from boys. Skill wise and Fitness wise. The way Lewis was struggling for breathing and the intensity with which drivers were pursuing positions where they were asking their race engineers to shut, makes it even more exciting to watch.

2. Pirelli to ensure the following.
A. A tyre lasts for two full laps of supreme pushing in qualifying. Currently, the tyres are good for two sectors and give away in another. It still requires nursing, even in qualifying !!!
B. Continue to build and enhance tyres that allow drivers to push hard and not get degraded due to following a car closely.
C. Build bigger difference between softer compounds to bring strategy into play.

3. Just like the way two compounds of tyres must be used in races, make a minimum of two pit stops a must. This would ensure that the drivers doesn't look at prolonging the tyre life and will try to get as much out of them as possible.

4. FIA to inspect if the BAT-ROBE that Mercedes has added to their front is helping them follow another car closer and helping them get better corner exits. If yes, then make it mandatory for other teams to follow similar solution (might just be that other teams have started looking at it).

That should then be good to ask, "Do we need a DRS here?"

[f1316]

We are just short of having the best experience of F1. I think the following would help.

1. Make those cars another 3 seconds faster. Let's see the men standing out from boys. Skill wise and Fitness wise. The way Lewis was struggling for breathing and the intensity with which drivers were pursuing positions where they were asking their race engineers to shut, makes it even more exciting to watch.

2. Pirelli to ensure the following.
A. A tyre lasts for two full laps of supreme pushing in qualifying. Currently, the tyres are good for two sectors and give away in another. It still requires nursing, even in qualifying !!!
B. Continue to build and enhance tyres that allow drivers to push hard and not get degraded due to following a car closely.
C. Build bigger difference between softer compounds to bring strategy into play.

3. Just like the way two compounds of tyres must be used in races, make a minimum of two pit stops a must. This would ensure that the drivers doesn't look at prolonging the tyre life and will try to get as much out of them as possible.

4. FIA to inspect if the BAT-ROBE that Mercedes has added to their front is helping them follow another car closer and helping them get better corner exits. If yes, then make it mandatory for other teams to follow similar solution (might just be that other teams have started looking at it).

That should then be good to ask, "Do we need a DRS here?"

Totally agree with C; but if we have C, do we need 3? I think a variance of strategy is good, so would be a shame to prevent people doing a 1 - just nice when that's not nailed on.

For 4, is there a rumour that it does help with these things? And the 'bat-robe' is the big scoop? I just presumed that the this is another piece for airflow management that would be messed up in dirty air, so interested to understand if not.

[Big Mangalhit]

@GPR-A

1) totally agree, we already see this year a massive increase in internal team pace difference. The driver is making more of difference. 3s would be nice, but don't you think we'll naturally arrive there with the natural evolution in 2/3 years?

2) agree in principle, except that I think we can't go for two straight laps of ultimate pace in hybrid era (batteries start the lap full and finish empty).
As for the compounds being more different it would be nice, but how do you do it? put the soft softer and risk it to degrade too fast or the hard harder and risk it to be useless?

3) this I disagree I like to see variation, and it can be in a form of a driver nursing is tyres and trying to prevent to be overtaken by the faster cars, like werlhein did here to get those 2pts.

4) I think what helped more here was not the update, just the nature of the new tyres and more DF this year. That let Ham to follow before the straight easier than he usually could. In the end the pass was more due to the soft tyres having a lot of grip than resistance to turbulence (IMO). Also it happened the same with alonso passing a williams on the straight.
Also you can't make it mandatory it is probably only working in tandem with the rest of the car.

[djos]

Dare I say it, F1 seems quite good at the moment? Drivers able to push on tyres but tyre strategy still counting for something. Stewards letting cars race, good times, no?

Yeah it's great isn't it, the new owners are a massive breath of fresh air for F1, I'm loving it!

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Totally agree with C; but if we have C, do we need 3? I think a variance of strategy is good, so would be a shame to prevent people doing a 1 - just nice when that's not nailed on.

There are so many circuits on the calendar that are 1 stop, even with Ultra Soft! That is boring and after first pit stop, you know the race is over. When you have tracks that are 2 stopper (or a marginal 3 stopper), there is so much for strategists to do. Add to that the Safety car and VSC, you have a lot of excitement. You don't need any other artificial ingredient (the junk of water sprinklers) to spice it up.

Let's say the difference in compound is bigger, but still teams would nurse the tyres with 1 stop to get to the end and we don't want to see crawling cars reaching the end. If you force them for 2 stop, on circuits that are currently 1 stopper, drivers would push harder as they know there is no premium on saving tyres as they have to change them. It would allow the drivers to become more physical. We would stop the junk from race engineers, "So and So, take care of the tyres" kind of stuff. It is annoying. We would love to hear what we have been hearing this year, "Lewis/Sebastian push push" and drivers saying, "Yes man I am pushing".

With mandatory multiple stops and bigger performance difference in compounds, the leader would always be under pressure from the guy chasing. We don't need large degradation of tyres for spicing up racing. At the end of 15 crazy fast (full power) laps if the tyres are a second slower, it is good enough. [/quote]

[GPR-A duplicate2]

@GPR-A

1) totally agree, we already see this year a massive increase in internal team pace difference. The driver is making more of difference. 3s would be nice, but don't you think we'll naturally arrive there with the natural evolution in 2/3 years?

I hope the evolution is faster. We have waited an eternity to see cars come back to the level of early 2000s cars.

2) agree in principle, except that I think we can't go for two straight laps of ultimate pace in hybrid era (batteries start the lap full and finish empty).
As for the compounds being more different it would be nice, but how do you do it? put the soft softer and risk it to degrade too fast or the hard harder and risk it to be useless?

When I say two laps, I am sure with the limitation of charging the batteries and cooling the PU, drivers would take a cool down lap in between. But the tyres should support two fast laps. As it stands, Pirelli is providing an extra set of tyres to push harder in qualifying and they take it back, so can't they make that special qualifying tyres that lasts two full fast laps? I am sure they can.

[Vladimir]

.

S3 section has been traditionally faster for Merc from 2012 onwards and they have always gone fast the next race which is Monaco.
Remember they had pole at Monaco from 2012 onwards (2012 Schumacher had pole but was demoted due to penalty). Only last year Lewis had problem in qualifying which allowed Riccardo to take pole.


The longer wheelbase would effect the pace in Monaco but their has still the best traction and mechanical grip
[/quote]

If you reamember ,last year Red Bull were in their own league.Mrcedes and Ferrari were much slower compered to Riciardo.
And even with Red Bull mistake in pit, Hamilton has grabed win.

[Steven]

I want to bring the attentio of you all to this qualifying analysis if not posted already. What does it say about the engine power, traction and relative low med high speeds of the cars?

https://streamable.com/nvsmo

The ferrari seemed to have better top end acceleration and downforce. Amazing thru the high speed corners and the wider lines that Vettel could take.
Really, the Ferrari was faster here and the pole was vettels but he screwed up the exit chicane as he said. What i am excited about is Mercedes low speed performance for Monaco.

Amazing video, Vettel was miles ahead coming into the last sector. He gained most time in turn 5 where Hamilton had a little lock-up and ran wide. Are these videos shown regularly?

The video is interesting, but the conclusions drawn from it are a little bit too easy.

First of all, to me, it shows that through several corners, Vettel had a better line. Especially turns 5 and 9, where it seemed to me like Hamilton entered the corner too shallow. He's probably doing this to have slightly straighter line into the corner to be able to brake later, but Vettel returns that by an acceleration advantage out of the corner (it's a great tactic in racing to keep someone behind though).

There's also this "conclusion" that Ferrari had the edge on the straight. Sure, best top speed was 4km/h better, and at Turn 1, Vettel was ahead, but when they came out of the final corner, it was clear that Hamilton had better speed out of the corner. So, for this comparison, it came all down to how good they took the final corner.

Also, the guy said "Hamilton probably saved some ERS"... I highly doubt that. They drive flat out, and the cars are set-up to deploy ERS when best suited around. AFAIK, the driver has no influence in this (unless he goes off the throttle of course, but that would be a bit strange in quali).

To me, the comparison says nothing more than: Vettel did the better job in S1 and S2, and Hamilton seemed to enjoy more grip in S3 to recover what he lost.

[Phil]

I have to say, DRS really ruins some races!

I think the removal of DRS would make this perfect. We could have watched HAM and VET battle it out for a few more laps.

Yeah, about that DRS argument... Are you aware that had there been no DRS at all, that Vettel might have been stuck behind Verstappen longer than he was (if not until he pitted) if there had been no DRS?

Lets recap: I am explicitly talking about the point in the race when Hamilton was closing on Vettel on their very first stint, implying they were about to stop and try an undercut, which then of course Ferrari used as an opportunity to pit Vettel and cover off that eventuality themselves, but also putting him into a gap that would see him close up to Verstappen rather quickly on a track as notoriously hard to pass as Catalunya.

DRS to thank, it was a none-issue and Vettel breezed past in unspectacular fashion, but what if there had been no DRS at all? Had we really seen this exciting "raw Hamilton/Vettel" battle that some are arguing was ruined by the DRS pass Hamilton pulled off towards the end? It goes both ways.

I'm not the biggest fan or supporter of DRS, but I see it as an ugly necessity, on some tracks more than others. Catalunya has been one of these tracks where it is nigh on impossible to pass. DRS was invented for the sole purpose of not having trains of cars because a car might end up behind a significantly slower one due to strategy or unfortunate circumstance. I.e. When Hamilton pitted in Australia, but even despite DRS, failed to overtake Verstappen and handed the win to Vettel who stayed out longer and overcame both. We want DRS to be only as effective that it is less effective among similar paced cars, but more effective towards slower cars.

Point in case; Hamilton/Rosberg in Brazil (among other races) in same cars, but failed to get passed despite DRS. It's an okay trade-off, one born partly out of necessity due to the complex aerodynamics on cars that make passing or closing up difficult. That might be the rawest, but when a quicker car fails to gain on a slower one because of these complex aero, it IMO doesn't have more to do with racing than if there is a device that sheds some drag at the press of a button. Hamilton still needed to get into that 'window', stay there and create that opportunity, evident by the amount of laps it took him to pull it off. It was as much a consequence of good driving, superior tire (soft vs medium) and DRS rather than being attributed to DRS alone.

[Restomaniac]

Keep it in mind that Hamiltons S run started with less then half tank full, and was relatively light in last 15 laps. That makes world of difference as far as tire condition goes.

Its a big win for Merc given Ferrari was better car in Spain, but Vettel, having raced with engine that has already done 4 races and all practice session lost a bit too much in S1, like Bottas

Ferrari was the better car? When was that?
Long race pace in FP1/2/3 testing belonged to Mercedes, 30+ laps in 1 set of tyres, fastest Qualy lap. Vettel struggled to get past a slower Mercedes that's engine was as we now know about to go bang where as Hamilton went past Vettel 'like a train'. But Ferrari was the fastest car.

Im not talking abouf FPs, Vettel is notoriously bad in S3, Webber easily outqualified him here pretty much every time, yet he got 0.051s from Ham in quali, with the old engine. Bottas pass was hard, but bottas and Seb both ran old engines at the end of their lifetime, but not Ham.

There was nothing in this race that showed me Merc was a better car. It won by good pit decision and set of circumstances (Bottas taking one for the team and taking 5-6s from Vettel). New engine for Vettel and Kimi in the race and Ham and Merc would have to worry about alot of things they just didnt have to yesterday.

Well if one doesn't want to see something then generally they find ways not to see it.

Evidence points to the fact that there wasn't much in it if anything at all. You have decided that Ferrari was faster. I have given evidence as to why that needs bringing into question.

[iotar__]

I have to say, DRS really ruins some races!

I think the removal of DRS would make this perfect. We could have watched HAM and VET battle it out for a few more laps.

Final comic relief of the season. All the DRS in the world didn't help Vettel in Russia and I don't recall you complaining about it there. Where was his DRS in Bahrain behind slowed down Bottas during 1st stint?

Can you spot the common factor? The one with mojo, losing races from the lead in the quicker car. Excuses making hypocrisy of the lowest quality, it wasn't Vettel it was DRS .

Raikkonen is lacking basic skills and Verstappen still doesn't know how corners work. There's no way he's making the left without collision or help. Same reason Raikkonen didn't take the wider line and cut causing it all on top of ineptitude. Of course It's easier to shout misleading nonsense (Bottas did nothing wrong and was actually the only one avoiding this mess) than improve and correct race-craft.

Same for Alonso, he casued the situation himself but it's easier to shout, expect gifts and pretend it's Ferrari days when anyone near him could expect a penalty. Unlike Raik/Verst Massa was in front taking the corner.

[Big Mangalhit]

Can you spot the common factor? The one with mojo, losing races from the lead in the quicker car. Excuses making hypocrisy of the lowest quality, it wasn't Vettel it was DRS .

Yes vettel is well known for losing races from the lead in the quicker car. I still remember when he lost 4 championships in the quicker car...

Honestly if there is anything Vet excels is controlling a race from the front. This weekend a bad strategy that nullified all the gap he had before going to the stint with tyre disadvantage lost him the race.