2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

[ClarkBT11]

Up to my understanding is, that Merc needs harder tires to get a wider setup window.

it's my understanding that a tire at a higher pressures would require a larger slip angle to get the same grip as a lower pressure tire (all else being equal). The larger slip angle should lead to more heat generation, and as seen in the quotes below Mercedes is already generating a lot of heat. So if anything I would think Mercedes wants lower pressures not higher.


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/03/31/2 ... ranscript/

11 From Lewis Hamilton Tyres are overheating.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/04/21/2 ... ranscript/

From Valtteri Bottas These rears are overheating. For sure the soft is going to be better.

If you need a larger slip angle on higher pressurised tyres to generate heat (grip) won't that benefit Mercedes if they find it easier to generate heat?

As soon as the pressures were dropped at​ Barcelona after Friday practice. I knew that would suit Ferrari more especially regarding the difference in times both teams set in FP 1&2, but it makes sense Mercedes giving wrong data when they know Ferrari will struggle to get temperatures in higher pressurised tyres. Every team will lie for an advantage. I thought they were changing the pressures to suit Ferrari but if teams are giving wrong data to suit their strategy my assumption was wrong in that aspect.

[ClarkBT11]

Good points by everyone. One other thing that was mentioned in the AMuS article is that lower tire pressures increases the force on the sidewalls and would make the car wobble more under force (vs a tire with more pressure that is inherently more stable). They speculate that the Ferrari deals very well with this wobbling/(sideway) movement very well as evident by their ability to retain ideal tire temps, good duration and obviously performance too.

Make of that as you will.

I do wonder though how much this info is still accurate though after Barcelona and the new updates. As said, Hamilton had very good performance off the board with both tire compounds. I think some of the above speculation and theorizing by AMuS stems from the point that Mercedes looked very mighty on Friday and then lost that advantage on Saturday and Sunday where both Ferrari and Mercedes looked nigh on equal. Maybe the idea is that the parity is somewhat due to the relaxation of the tire pressures and if Pirelli was more restrictive, then Mercedes would be in a more dominating position?

Do you think the wobbling (friction) will generate heat plus the larger contact area to the asphalt, which will help Ferrari if they find it harder to get the tyres into the right window compared to Mercedes.

[dans79]

If you need a larger slip angle on higher pressurised tyres to generate heat (grip) won't that benefit Mercedes if they find it easier to generate heat?

I think you misunderstood what i said.

You need a higher slip angle on a higher pressure tire to generate the same amount of grip. The side effect of the higher slip angle is more heat. Based on what we have seen/heard from Merc they want less heat, not more.

[ClarkBT11]

If you need a larger slip angle on higher pressurised tyres to generate heat (grip) won't that benefit Mercedes if they find it easier to generate heat?

I think you misunderstood what i said.

You need a higher slip angle on a higher pressure tire to generate the same amount of grip. The side effect of the higher slip angle is more heat. Based on what we have seen/heard from Merc they want less heat, not more.

Oh, i was under the impression it was harder to generate heat in higher pressurised tyres, and Mercedes finding it easier to put heat into the tyres would have an advantage?
I remember drivers complaining they can't get enough heat into the tyres when they're pumped up like balloons.

[Artur Craft]

Even RedBull is currently 30 points down on downforce.

source? Anyway, I'll doubt even if there is a source as only each team knows their aero numbers. So, Red Bull doesn't know how their aero numbers compares with anybody else, and vice-versa.

I didn't read AMUS because I don't speak German and the google translations of that language gives me headache, but I'm sure they couldn't have claimed any more BS than that. Maybe they can match that, but not surpass it as it's pure speculation taken from one's arse(sorry for being blatant and rude).

it's my understanding that a tire at a higher pressures would require a larger slip angle to get the same grip as a lower pressure tire (all else being equal). The larger slip angle should lead to more heat generation, and as seen in the quotes below Mercedes is already generating a lot of heat. So if anything I would think Mercedes wants lower pressures not higher.

From many tyres' test rig data that I've seen, this is correct but up to a point, ie, There is an specific pressure which will demand the most slip angle in order to reach it's peak lateral force. Lower or higher values than the said pressure will need less slip angle to reach it's peak friction.

We don't know when that happens with the Pirelli tyres used on F1, so it's pointless to go that route of discussion.

I think Button made a big mistake with his tyre choices. He should've done like almost everybody and chosen a max of 1 Soft tyre. Barcelona showed that the degradation is high but there is no crossover until very late in the stints. The Softs were ~1s than the Mediums on a QLF lap, and such gap remained for many laps because, albeit the softer tyre degraded quite a lot, the harder tyre also degraded by an almost similar rate.

The tarmac was resufaced and is very smooth and polished and that, together with the low speed nature of the corners, means that the wear will be quite low even for the US and SS.

[ChrisDanger]

Even RedBull is currently 30 points down on downforce.

source? Anyway, I'll doubt even if there is a source as only each team knows their aero numbers. So, Red Bull doesn't know how their aero numbers compares with anybody else, and vice-versa.

That's not even a measurable number anyway. I mean, how much is a "point"? How many "points" of downforce do other teams have? What else is measured in "points"? It's a completely useless unit.

[ChrisDanger]

Just a re-reminder of this weekend's times.

[Big Mangalhit]

Well, the only clear claim here is the bet on Mercedes being manipulating the numbers.

With the Merc having a very narrow set-up window, it makes no sense to me that they would intentionally falsify data. If Pirelli is changing the tire pressures Saturday morning, Merc would be throwing some of that hard won set-up data from Friday out the window. Thus making their job on Saturday that much harder.

They mandate a minimum pressure, if they lower that minimum merc can always opt to stay with their previous pressure

[Manjhi]

I think one thing is certain from this race :


$troll is crashing

[thisisatest]

If you need a larger slip angle on higher pressurised tyres to generate heat (grip) won't that benefit Mercedes if they find it easier to generate heat?

I think you misunderstood what i said.

You need a higher slip angle on a higher pressure tire to generate the same amount of grip. The side effect of the higher slip angle is more heat. Based on what we have seen/heard from Merc they want less heat, not more.

Oh, i was under the impression it was harder to generate heat in higher pressurised tyres, and Mercedes finding it easier to put heat into the tyres would have an advantage?
I remember drivers complaining they can't get enough heat into the tyres when they're pumped up like balloons.

Lower pressures will generate more heat. Casing flex generates a lot of the heat. A cold tire (or one with too much pressure) will slide across the asphalt and make it difficult to generate the heat (beyond the outermost tire surface, which is shedding).
Remember Ford Explorers and the Firestone tire fiasco? It stemmed from low tire pressures creating too much heat, damaging the tire and causing blowouts.

[waynes]

I think one thing is certain from this race :


$troll is crashing

you spelt Palmer wrong

[Sevach]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-a ... co-909683/

Swimming pool chicane changed again.

One season they make it faster... the next they make it slower...

[santos]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-a ... co-909683/

Swimming pool chicane changed again.

One season they make it faster... the next they make it slower...

thoose are not kerbs... thoose are mountains. I guess that plenty of carbon fiber will crack this weekend.

[Bill_Kar]

Oh, i was under the impression it was harder to generate heat in higher pressurised tyres, and Mercedes finding it easier to put heat into the tyres would have an advantage?
I remember drivers complaining they can't get enough heat into the tyres when they're pumped up like balloons.

Hmmm I'm not really an expert on this, but I can recall a race in Australia (not sure what year though) when Martin Brundle said that during the formation lap or during SC period, Schumacher needed to do much more movement with the steering wheel because he was struggling to generate heat to his low-pressure tyres.

[Manjhi]

I think one thing is certain from this race :


$troll is crashing

you spelt Palmer wrong

Ooops

Lets me correct it :

$troll is crashing, along with Palmer.