2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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these particulates and residuals are plausible carcinogens whether made by cooking our bread or meat or vegetables or in our car engines or our heating
eg we in the UK are now officially told that toast should be no darker than yellow
but the car emission particulate standards get the attention

74% of the PM (particulates) in London is from heating-emission-compliant taxpayer-subsidised wood-burning heating systems
using fuel brought thousands of miles from eg wetland forests whose disruption produces more global-warming gases than is saved
(these forest areas should anyway be drained to reduce their large methane emissions, methane being 40x as bad as CO2)

but the lunatics who create and ride public opinion have long since taken over the asylum
eg brainwashed generations now cook with so-called 'unsaturates' and so generate and eat aldehydes (officially plausible carcinogen precursors)
when outcome data from 40+ years of following 7000,000 case outcomes now shows fat consumption (amount) is the health issue, not fat type
loveable old man Yudkin's 'theories' (guesses) 50 years ago were wrong but the public policy mountain cannot admit fault
food labelling policy then caused the apparent introduction of 'trans-fats' and a consequent scandal
starting 50 years ago I was predicting this muddle

the unburned 4 stroke oil is recovered on disposal ?
this more than ever means burning it for heating because modern oil is too complicated to be economically recycleable as lubricant
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 29 May 2017, 11:58, edited 1 time in total.

Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
29 May 2017, 04:46

Actually P, ol' Adolf sponsored the science examining the ideas of Kadenacy re: the sonic pulse in shaped tubes..
Hitler was a keen 'motorhead' who wanted the Nazi race, ah bike racing - teams at the I.o.M. - to win..
..but the science behind the 'expansion chamber' was a spin off from the 'V1' cruise missile pulse-jet tech..

See: http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/rep ... m-1131.pdf
Cheers J.A.W.
Clearly the yanks had little interest in applying it to motorcycles. Harley-Davidsons with expansions - hardly! I wonder if it was offered to the likes of Mercury Marine?...
Begs the question though - where did the idea of resonance for the pulse jets come from?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
29 May 2017, 11:13
these particulates and residuals are plausible carcinogens...

...surely 80-90% of 4 stroke oil is unburned and so is recovered on disposal
afaik it is then burned for heating because modern oil is too complicated to be economically recycleable as lubricant
Well T-C, when 'premium' brands such as BMW & Subaru can absolve themselves from sanction by claiming that
engine oil-loss ( & via burning, not leaks of liquid) at rates of a litre per 1000 Km is "normal" - then what is up?

I'd hope that contaminated waste ex-sump oil, is at least 'cleaned' before being burnt to be expelled into the air..
( & at the risk of being off-topic, I live in a 'country town' where bizarrely, it is still deemed permissible to burn raw wood
& coal for heating in open fire places - a situation which can cause an awful pervasive toxic 'smog' - in certain weather)..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Pinger wrote:
29 May 2017, 11:57
J.A.W. wrote:
29 May 2017, 04:46

Actually P, ol' Adolf sponsored the science examining the ideas of Kadenacy re: the sonic pulse in shaped tubes..
Hitler was a keen 'motorhead' who wanted the Nazi race, ah bike racing - teams at the I.o.M. - to win..
..but the science behind the 'expansion chamber' was a spin off from the 'V1' cruise missile pulse-jet tech..

See: http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/rep ... m-1131.pdf
Cheers J.A.W.
Clearly the yanks had little interest in applying it to motorcycles. Harley-Davidsons with expansions - hardly! I wonder if it was offered to the likes of Mercury Marine?...
Begs the question though - where did the idea of resonance for the pulse jets come from?
Look up 'athodyd' the old term for pulse-jet, & the idea of the 2T as harnessing that harmonic pulse..
.. to a shaft for PTO, is far from finished - even if it was being discussed in 'Automobile Year' - 60 years ago..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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functioning Russian, French and Spanish (valveless) pulsejets preceeded or paralled WW1 ie others had 'Kadenacy' ideas before Kadenacy
though the PJ apparently became significantly better than worthless only with Schmid's post-WW1 introduction of valves

ignorant racers eg UK Brooklands oval and US boardtrack ovals had independently established tuned length exhaust and induction systems c 1920
and Kadenacy and his British employers had no leverage from his patents eg vs US 2 stroke makers on prior invention/originality grounds

the PJ gives a CR of only c 1.2 and so is desperately inefficient eg in PRT configuration
ie resonance is only valuable used as a multiplier of piston engine throughput


btw do we believe that where significant 4 stroke oil is 'burned' it is burned in-cylinder or in-catalyst or passes unburned to atmosphere ?

btw those 70000 sleeve valve engines were so expensive as sleeves were forgings (Napier) or centrifugal castings ? (Bristol)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 31 May 2017, 09:25, edited 2 times in total.

Pinger
Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
29 May 2017, 13:56


btw do we believe that where significant 4 stroke oil is 'burned' it is burned in-cylinder or in-catalyst or passes unburned to atmosphere ?
In the case of my engine (using 0.5l/25l fuel) I'd say in cylinder.
Looking at photos of the uncleaned pistons and combustion chambers, though they aren't filthy with carbon, the worst for carbon accumulation are the cylinders which were most affected by burned exhaust valves (which prompted the rebuild). The burned oil was IMO detected as fuel burn and the ECU leaned the fuel, and retarded the ignition timing when premature detonation occurred. Unless merely burning oil burns out exhaust valves.
That said, never a trace of blue smoke. Is blue smoke particulate matter that the cat burns off? With an excess of HC, does the cat have the O2 to do that?

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godlameroso
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Today's oil burns pretty clean all things considered, apart from the smell it doesn't really leave many engine deposits. If the exhaust valve seals leak a lot, oil can get coked on the exhaust valves and prevent good sealing.
Saishū kōnā

J.A.W.
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My M-B engine operation warnings data set includes taking care to ensure that sump volume level is not exceeded..
..with the advisement that over-filling may cause the exhaust catalyst to malfunction..

& T-C, regarding the 'cost' of Bristol sleeve-valve aero-engines,AFAIR, the sleeves paid their way in operation,
..by dint of efficiency, in SFC, TBO, & via reduction in parts/labour costs - during assembly/overhaul..

The 60 year old 'Automobile Year' feature on 2T engine developments - does unequivocally credit the outstanding
advancements from pulse-tuning as being due to " ...the work of many minds"..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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A 2T dyno comparison of ~20 expansion chambers - as performance tested - on a 70cc scooter..

https://www.tuningmatters.com/reviews/e ... aust-test/
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

uniflow
uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Probably posted this here before but here it is again for those that missed it.
https://youtu.be/UdSw3QbZtKE

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Excellent bit of Kiwi Ingenuity there, & new to me as well, ta Uniflow..

What is your intent with the home built 'YZ 360'?
An improved 'Bighorn' - kind of beastie?
Maybe Yamaha will do a KTM, & build a production unit too.. IMO, ~400cc is a good size for a 2T dirty fun machine..

FYI, here is a ride report on the TPI KTM.. I note a claim of a 'patent' is made, but it appears to be only a claim..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NIHDREexJs
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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[quote=J.A.W.]
......regarding the 'cost' of Bristol sleeve-valve aero-engines,AFAIR, the sleeves paid their way in operation,
..by dint of efficiency, in SFC, TBO, & via reduction in parts/labour costs - during assembly/overhaul..[/quote]

@J.A.W.
Bristol engines were no more durable than the conventional engines (and the Centaurus was neither durable nor reliable) ...
(and serviceability comes from engines where a cylinder reading low compression can be fixed in 4 hours)
....and less efficient and more draggy than the Canadair useage of Merlins interestingly linked below (please don't quote bits from it)
the Lancaster II (Hercules) had more power but less speed and range than the Merlin jobs
official 1944 UK documents on the Mustang III give 17 gph at 20"/1800 rpm on weak mixture
official 1954 US documents on the F-51D give 36 gph (US) at 25"/1600 rpm on auto lean
that's the point of the Merlin - downsizing 80 years ago
http://skyviking.net/svwp/?p=604
Douglas only permitted Canadair to sell to British or Commonwealth countries

amusingly even the airline Centaurus (and Hercules) used cartridge starting - scary for the passengers

uniflow
uniflow
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J.A.W. wrote:
30 May 2017, 12:22
Excellent bit of Kiwi Ingenuity there, & new to me as well, ta Uniflow..

What is your intent with the home built 'YZ 360'?
An improved 'Bighorn' - kind of beastie?
Maybe Yamaha will do a KTM, & build a production unit too.. IMO, ~400cc is a good size for a 2T dirty fun machine..

FYI, here is a ride report on the TPI KTM.. I note a claim of a 'patent' is made, but it appears to be only a claim..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NIHDREexJs
J.A.W yes this is sort of a modern Bighorn, my Bighorn is so nice to ride (engine wise) that I thought a modern water cooled version would be great fun. So the idea is to showcase my new DTPI injection system, totally variable rotary valve housing (open AND shut sides) also a few other innovations at the same time all in a modern chassis and have some fun at the same time.
360 is big enough, 60 / 70 HP is possible but with the variable RV and a power valve,a big fat torque curve is expected.
I get a bit pissed off on my YZ 250 out on the open straight stuff with the 450F's out dragging me. They need a twostroke lesson teaching to them. Interestingly this new DTPI system should be well suited to a 125 as it's capable of much higher rpm.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Thanks for that Uniflow, & well done with the practical proof of concept work..
..lets hope the major makers can do 2T machines, like-wise..

& for T-C, ( & apologies to others for going off topic)
.. the R-R Merlin was in fact up-sized into the Griffon, & fitted, when the Merlin Spitfires were out-paced..

& the civil Merlin had to be run hard to compete with larger capacity radials, & this brought problems..
..compared to the Bristol Hercules ( check the comparisons for the Avro Tudor powered by both) the Merlin..
..had to run @ twice the boost, which made it intrusively loud, & a complex cross-over exhaust was needed..

& the Merlin, when operated thusly, offered worse SFC, & <1/2 the TBO.. & with many thousands more parts..
..case in point, the Merlin cam followers were/are notorious for getting flogged out, whereas the Bristol has..
.. being a sleeve valve, no moving parts above the piston/sleeve..

As for the the Centaurus being "neither durable or reliable"...
Well, T-C - Neville Duke was confident enough to run it hard enough on the Hawker Furies he delivered by air
to Pakistan at record speed, even beating the existing DH Vampire turbo-jet record from London-to-Rome, on the way..

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 00953.html

& a few more relevant 'Flight' articles:
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01810.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 00986.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 00038.html

& back on topic, a 'Flight' article on the fuel efficiency possible from 2T CI turbo-compound engines..
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01225.html
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello all.

Lubrication in the 2-strokes:

Quote from the US6,712,519 patent of Bombardier-Rotax GmbH:

“In a conventional two-stroke engine, as used in motorcycles, snowmobiles, personal watercraft, etc., the crankshaft is usually supported by roller bearings with separate seals mounted outboard of the bearings to seal in both the lubrication and the intake charge present in a conventional two-stroke crankcase. The roller bearings can be lubricated by oil mixed in with the intake gas charge that enters the crankcase and/or by oil injection directly to the bearings. However, any oil entering the crankcase of a conventional two-stroke will enter the intake charge and be forced into the combustion chamber through the transfer ports, as is known. Thus, this oil will be burned in the combustion process, thereby increasing exhaust emissions. As a result, decreasing exhaust emissions in a two-stroke engine necessarily requires efforts with respect to both the combustion process and the crankcase lubricating oil.

Certain approaches to limiting the amount of lubricating oil entering the crankcase in a two-stroke engine have proven somewhat successful in reducing exhaust emissions. In one approach, the amount of lubricating oil supplied to the intake charge is merely reduced, thereby reducing the amount of oil which does not come into contact with any lubrication requiring surface but which is merely burned during the combustion process. The problem with this approach is that as the amount of lubricating oil is reduced, the probability of inadequate bearing lubrication increases, especially in engines having high power output, with predictable undesirable results.

Other efforts generally concentrate on reducing the amount of oil supplied to the intake charge, but separately supplying smaller additional quantities of oil directly where it is needed to compensate for the leaner concentration of oil in the intake charge. For instance, the amount of oil required by the crankshaft bearings can be directly injected to those bearings while simultaneously reducing the amount of lubricating oil supplied to the intake gas charge. Thus, the overall amount of lubricating oil used is reduced, along with the exhaust emissions from burning the oil. On the other hand, the lower limit of the amount of lubricating oil supplied to the crankcase (and thus, the combustion chamber) will depend on the lubrication requirements of the engine components, such as the crankshaft and rod bearings, pistons, etc. In any event, the oil supplied to the crankcase will either be burned during the combustion process or exit in the exhaust as unburned hydrocarbons. In recent years, as technical advances have resulted in increased power outputs from two-stroke engines, existing crankshaft bearings have been less able to withstand this increased loading over time, especially as lubricating oil has been reduced to lower exhaust emissions.

One proposal to limit the free lubricant supplied to the intake charge is given in U.S. Pat. No. 3,641,990 to Kinnersly, issued Feb. 15, 1972. Kinnersly discloses the use of a one-sided crankshaft supported by a pair of crankshaft roller bearings enclosed on either end by seals, with an annular chamber disposed between the two roller bearings filled with lubricant at the time of engine assembly. Kinnersly discloses that such an arrangement can be used with either a two-stroke or a four-stroke engine and that the roller bearings and seals can be separate or integral units. There is no disclosure as to what type of seal should be used or how such a seal would be integrated into the roller bearing. In a four-stroke engine, this is less significant because the crankcase pressures are generally not high enough to interfere with the seals. It is also clear that with the use of the one-sided crankshaft, that the Kinnersly engine is not intended for high performance and the severe loadings resulting therefrom. ”

END OF QUOTE


In the Rotax E-TEC 850 the crankshaft bearings are sealed according (?) the above patent (priority: 28 July 2000; i.e. it has three more years before expiration).

Image

for the sake of a lower lubricant consumption and, consequently, for the sake of a cleaner exhaust and of a lower running cost.

However in practice, and despite the increased cost and friction (count the number of the “tight” seals required), this “innovating lubrication system” proved (judging from the complaints of the owners) not better than the conventional 2-stroke lubrication used in their previous model Rotax E-TEC 800.


The superior power density (kW/Kg or kW/cc) is the biggest advantage of the 2-strokes.

The emissions and the running cost are the big issues / disadvantages.
On the emissions and on the running cost of the 2-strokes is where the efforts should be focused.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos