Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

[BanMeToo]

Merc aren't forced to run the lower pressure if they don't want to.

[ENGINE TUNER]

He's saying that Merc don't have to run the lower pressure if that hurts their car.

It's not just a matter of "hurt their car", the lower pressures would most probably make everyone faster, but some moreso than others. It could be that Merc only gain half a second per lap while Ferrari gain 1sec, regardless it is still wrong for them to change the tire parameters during the season and even moreso during a race weekend for absolutely no reason at all. Pirelli did not lower the pressures for safety reasons, so in reality they have no reason to do so.

[diego.liv]

What ENGINE TUNER is saying makes perfect sense. But reports in Italy (bias or not, and these years there was not that much of a bias truth be told) claim that Pirelli imposed higher PSIs during winter testing because they wanted to be cautioius with new faster cars, especially since the tyres were tested in 2016 in a stupid way.

Caution also bacause of the data teams were giving them pre- during winter, even (MErc Renault) during the season.

[motobaleno]

How did they validate that the down force levels were false ? Did they just compare it to what other teams were reporting & find it odd that one team was apparently reporting higher levels ?

What if Merc are actually achieving those levels of down force & now a blanket reduction in the tyre pressure will harm them ? Why mandate lower pressures anyway ? They made a massive fuss regarding low pressures for safety grounds last year, so if there's no issue now running them at the high or at the low end, why not just let the teams adjust pressures to extract the best performance from their package providing there's no "safety" concern.

Pirelli are just incompetent.

the are very accurate and simple ways to measure downforce
beyond this increasing the window of allowed pressures (that is to say lowering the mandated minimum) goes exactly in the direction yourself write that is to say "let the teams adjust pressures to extract the best performance from their package providing there's no "safety" concern".

[motobaleno]

If Pirelli have mandated a minimum pressure from pre season testing going forward and then all of a sudden begin to progressively lower that minimum pressure they could be unfairly aiding 1(or more) teams over others. Merc could have designed/tuned their suspension and aero platform to the pirelli tires as they were run from pre-season testing and then all of a sudden pirelli begin to precipitously drop the minimum tire pressures on a race by race, or day by day basis giving an advantage to teams that did not tune their cars as well or as much.

Lower pressures(over a weekend) probably help everyone go faster, but they most certainly help some more than others, and that is wrong in a single tire series.

This is no different than when pirelli changed the construction of their tires mid 2013 that ended up favoring the RBR car.

Could you please report some source affirming what you claim: that is to say that Pirelli mandated a minimum pressure based on preseason testing?
All the sources I have found affirms that Pirelli has mandated a minimum pressure based on df values declared by teams.
If (as media reports) those levels have been proved to be false, I agree with you that lowering the minimum mandated pressure is not the right thing to do.
the right thing to do would have been to lower the minimum mandated pressure AND severely punish those who give fraudolent information

[SR71]

Pirelli is doing the opposite of favoritism.

They are opening the window for more teams to find performance.

Nobody is forcing a single team to run lower pressures.

If mercs performance was locked in high PSI they would be favoring Merc by keeping pressures artificially high.

That is absurd, they wouldn't be "keeping pressures artificially high", they would be keeping the pressures consistent through the weekend. Unless there is a safety reason to lower the pressures(THERE IS NOT), there is no logic behind lowering the pressures.

The pressures have been run since pre-season testing and to suddenly change them and in the middle of the weekend is biased.

Your logic is absolutely flawed.

The logic is to open the performance window of the tires as they learn more about them.

Seems as good of a reason as any to change minimum PSI.

I guess if "your" favorite team/driver seems unable to find performance with the tires at any pressure then yeah, it seems biased.

[ferkan]

Hmm according to AMUS, Pirelli had few psi higher pressure on Friday in Barcelona GP in comparison to psi in testing on same track. They have received DF figures from teams and would start conservative in first two FPs, then would lower them as there was absolutely no risk of running them lower. As we have seen from first 6 races, there wasn't any problems with tires exploding or imposing risk towards anyone, they have been quite durable (as everyone asked) so it seems Pirelli has done their job rather well.

BTW its interesting that every team bar Mercedes said psi was far to high on friday in Barcelona. Don't see a reason to keep psi so high if every other team bar Merc wants them lower (and there is no risk involved). If Merc likes higher pressure in their tires, no body is stopping them from using it

[Stormy]

There are always conspiracy theories when it comes to the most efficient car. Ferrari just made a better car, simple as that. No Italian mystery here as Toto Wolf likes to say. Ferrari opted to use both of their racing drivers to test the new tires. Seb and Kimi did way more thousands of kilometers of testing with the new tires compared to VB and Lewis, especially Lewis who only made 50 laps of testing! Their illegal suspension was also banned and that may have influenced Merc's problems as well.

[ENGINE TUNER]

There are always conspiracy theories when it comes to the most efficient car. Ferrari just made a better car, simple as that. No Italian mystery here as Toto Wolf likes to say. Ferrari opted to use both of their racing drivers to test the new tires. Seb and Kimi did way more thousands of kilometers of testing with the new tires compared to VB and Lewis, especially Lewis who only made 50 laps of testing! Their illegal suspension was also banned and that may have influenced Merc's problems as well.

2013 there were 4 different teams that won in the first 10 races, pirelli changed the tires because of several high profile tire blow ups and RBR/VET went on to win every single race after that. Is that a conspiracy theory? In that case they changed the tire spec in the name of safety, what is their excuse now? They have no grounds to change the tire parameters, especially when it could favor one team more than the other.

The tire testing that the 3 mule cars did was supposedly completely blind. VET and/or Ferrari may not have even tested the tires that were chosen for 2017. There were 96 different prototype tires tested by pirelli on the mule cars, what percentage of those 96 do you think VET/ferrari tested? How would they know to design their car around any of those 96 different prototypes, especially if they didn't even test the final chosen spec. RBR designed their car around what they considered the prototype tire with the best characteristics by the data given to the teams by pirelli and have since admitted that they got it wrong. VET's and RAI's tire testing meant nothing towards the choosing of the 2017 tires, nor did it mean anything toward the design of the 2017 Ferrari.

The only valid point you have put forward is the FIA's reinterpretation of the Merc & RBR trick suspensions.

[giantfan10]

There are always conspiracy theories when it comes to the most efficient car. Ferrari just made a better car, simple as that. No Italian mystery here as Toto Wolf likes to say. Ferrari opted to use both of their racing drivers to test the new tires. Seb and Kimi did way more thousands of kilometers of testing with the new tires compared to VB and Lewis, especially Lewis who only made 50 laps of testing! Their illegal suspension was also banned and that may have influenced Merc's problems as well.

2013 there were 4 different teams that won in the first 10 races, pirelli changed the tires because of several high profile tire blow ups and RBR/VET went on to win every single race after that. Is that a conspiracy theory? In that case they changed the tire spec in the name of safety, what is their excuse now? They have no grounds to change the tire parameters, especially when it could favor one team more than the other.

The tire testing that the 3 mule cars did was supposedly completely blind. VET and/or Ferrari may not have even tested the tires that were chosen for 2017. There were 96 different prototype tires tested by pirelli on the mule cars, what percentage of those 96 do you think VET/ferrari tested? How would they know to design their car around any of those 96 different prototypes, especially if they didn't even test the final chosen spec. RBR designed their car around what they considered the prototype tire with the best characteristics by the data given to the teams by pirelli and have since admitted that they got it wrong. VET's and RAI's tire testing meant nothing towards the choosing of the 2017 tires, nor did it mean anything toward the design of the 2017 Ferrari.

The only valid point you have put forward is the FIA's reinterpretation of the Merc & RBR trick suspensions.

You are ranting and raving about a non issue. If Mercedes wants to run higher pressures then they are free to do so Pirelli has mandated minimum pressures not maximum pressures so all the teams that built their cars to maximize higher pressures can run them penalty free : ) whats the issue? Where was all this complaining when tire pressures were raised and Mercedes kept on winning?

[zac510]

I can understand that a team might have given a higher downforce figure because they expected to reach that figure after some more development, but in the end have not. Perhaps it's not fraudulent information, but unintentionally misleading. In any case the design of the tyres and the design of the car are so integrated these days, I think it's entirely reasonable for Pirelli to expect to receive accurate information and data from the teams.

[marmer]

I can understand that a team might have given a higher downforce figure because they expected to reach that figure after some more development, but in the end have not. Perhaps it's not fraudulent information, but unintentionally misleading. In any case the design of the tyres and the design of the car are so integrated these days, I think it's entirely reasonable for Pirelli to expect to receive accurate information and data from the teams.

indeed they should as it only helps the team that provides the information. they cannot share anything.

i remember when virgin came into f1 they asked for a fuel tank that was not big enough. the supplier like Pirelli does all teams for safety reasons.

they new it was too small but could't tell Virgin as it would be classed as telling them other teams plans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 588379.stm

[LionKing]

1) it is clear that you don't really know how these things goes so I will no more reply to your claims but I kindly suggest you to study F1 technicalities and dynamics little deeper.

Stop playing the person. Play the ball.

(Translation for non-English speakers: Stop attacking the person. Instead, discuss the points he's making)

The point is he is not making any, pretty much ranting in most of his posts.

The tires are the same tires, Pirelli has not changed them. Pirelli is just letting teams to use an operating range which has been shown to be safe so far with no blowups or no other evident issues.

Why should they artificially mandate higher minimum pressures if the tires can handle a broader range? As it has been repeated many many times, anyone who wishes can go above the minimum mandates pressures, can just do so.

Secondly the cars are not designed in February, but long time before that. No F1 tire rule that was tweaked in the last minute to hinder any team or another.

[diego.liv]

Although I don't defend ENGINE one can understand his pov; why widening the pressure window when tyres are so much critical performance wise? If it is mainly to answer the teams request of having more grip, that's the incompetence to which ENGINE alludes: they provide a range of rubber so hard that the hardest compound may never be used again, the softest compound not so soft, a rubber that till now (for some)required multiple laps to be worked with for qualifying. Plus all these past years of tyre problems.
If it really is incompetence by Pirelli, there should be competition among tyre Manufacturers too

[ENGINE TUNER]

The point is he is not making any, pretty much ranting in most of his posts.

The tires are the same tires, Pirelli has not changed them. Pirelli is just letting teams to use an operating range which has been shown to be safe so far with no blowups or no other evident issues.

Why should they artificially mandate higher minimum pressures if the tires can handle a broader range? As it has been repeated many many times, anyone who wishes can go above the minimum mandates pressures, can just do so.

Secondly the cars are not designed in February, but long time before that. No F1 tire rule that was tweaked in the last minute to hinder any team or another.

There is no ranting, refute my points.

The tires do not behave the same with different tire pressures so therefore they are not the "same" tires, again, if they behaved the same with lower tire pressures then why change them? Changing the tire pressures midseason or even mid race weekend is wrong and something pirelli should not be doing except for only in the case of safety.

How are they "artificially higher"? They are what pirelli prescribed at the beginning of the weekend. Is the pit lane speed limit "artificially low"? Should the FIA be allowed to raise it in the middle of the race after 1 team has pitted while another hasn't?

Lowering the minimum pressures likely makes EVERYONE faster, but it also likely makes some go "more faster" than others. For example, if the lower pressure make Merc .5s faster and Ferrari 1.5s faster Merc will still run the lower pressure but it is not fair to change them mid race weekend.

No the cars are not designed in Feb, but that is when the initial tire testing was done and with another test in Bahrain that is when the teams had the opportunity to optimize their cars for the actual tires that pirelli provided with the actual cars that the teams produced. Moving the goalposts after those tests is wrong and can be viewed as biased. The tire allocations for the first 5 races were fixed because of the unfamiliarity with the new 2017 tire spec in the name of fairness but now they are throwing all fairness out of the window by changing the minimum tire pressure between practice and qually. It is wrong.

If the tires are the same regardless of the minimum tire pressure then why are they changing them between practice and the race? If it isn't for safety, which it is not, then it is clearly to advantange some team over another.

Refute my points.