Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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NickT wrote:Well that really would upset the Status Quo and the top teams really would start to push for rules that allowed overtaking
I think that may be the ulterior motive behind the reccomendation...

Chris

donskar
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Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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At work. Briefly: Make scoring 10-6-4-3-2-1. (Give more value to WINNING)

Drop the idiocy of frozen engines.

If something MUST be frozen, let the FIA provide standard front and rear wings.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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dumrick wrote:Patrick Head suggests the starting grid to be defined according to championship position, in reversed order. Something that wouldn't take any tech regulations changes, would be straightforward to understand, would balance the field, would force drivers to try harder to climb up the field and could provide some interesting tactics from the teams, whose position wouldn't be anymore correlated with their speed but could give radically different agendas to different teams (nowadays, the last qualifiers aren't planning their strategy to win, naturally, so everyone follows the simulator's "optimal" strategy with some tweaks...).
Honestly, had this suggestion

come from almost anyone else than Patrick, I would've scoffed and brushed it aside, being "that much of a purist". Obviously, one of my greatest regrets in implementing something like this would be losing the qualifying - no-one will go for the pole if it is to be found at 24th of the grid. That being said, the current system (with race fuel tactics and all) is still a far cry from the excitement of the drivers going all out with new tyres and a minimal fuel load. Given that Bernie & Co. will not like losing any TV time, perhaps this could be brought back in a simple points-earning format for Saturday.

What delights me in Patrick's thinking is that I perceive the logic to be founded on solid technical/engineering grounds. He's no doubt witnessed the discussions about adjustable winglets, kinetic energy recovery systems and push to pass systems all of which must appear at least somewhat gimmicky, misplaced and artificial to a hard core F1 engineer. Taking one step back and trying to establish an integral of the wider problem could very well produce this simple solution: "Rather than trying to engineer overtaking, let us engineer in an environment where there is overtaking.".

This could relieve much of the unnecessary micro-managment pressure coming from FIA/Mosley, something that has essentially just produced rules that prevent engineers from doing their jobs in a motivating, relevant environment - in essence, properly. I might be wrong, but I also view this (and Marmorini's KERS comments) as an exercise in "rattling the shackles" or "a freedom call", perhaps signalling the beginning of a wider effort to get F1 technology back on an agreeable, sustainable and inspiring track.

As to the racing side of things, there are also some things to consider. Could the current points system stand? I doubt it. Without thinking it through too much, perhaps positions gained during the race (minus the ones "gifted" by DNFs/DQs) should amount to points. Podium places are another rather obvious cause for compensation. Some sorts of mathematical models will have to be established to test such systems, perhaps based on self organising maps or something. If anything, the result should be such that any on-track event can be easily perceived in light of the points by the fans - in a manner that makes sense.

Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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What if the Constructors points were only awarded for qualifying position, and Driver points awarded for race position?

That would be cool IMHO.

Chris

dumrick
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Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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Conceptual wrote:What if the Constructors points were only awarded for qualifying position, and Driver points awarded for race position?

That would be cool IMHO.

Chris
Aren't you trying to adapt too much? I guess I would be happy simply with this reverse grids into place, same points system and no qualifying whatsoever. Eventually, a broader scope of point allocation, to allow a "finer" sorting of the championship positions, but that would be nothing radical, other series reward points further down the finishing positions, and that would be it.

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dave kumar
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Joined: 26 Feb 2008, 14:16
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Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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As usual somebody has made the point far more succinctly than I could have managed. Thanks checkered.
checkered wrote:
What delights me in Patrick's thinking is that I perceive the logic to be founded on solid technical/engineering grounds. He's no doubt witnessed the discussions about adjustable winglets, kinetic energy recovery systems and push to pass systems all of which must appear at least somewhat gimmicky, misplaced and artificial to a hard core F1 engineer. Taking one step back and trying to establish an integral of the wider problem could very well produce this simple solution: "Rather than trying to engineer overtaking, let us engineer in an environment where there is overtaking."
We need a change of environment to foster the kind of racing we want to see. What kind of racing is this... there are as many opinions as people but may be we can agree that we want F1 to be at the cutting edge of engineering, to be fast and to be exciting.

One aspect of this environment is the points system. It rewards consistency over risk taking. I think tinkering with the number of points awarded to the first few positions won't solve this problem. Okay if you double the number of points for a win then it will become the only thing worth racing for. But doesn't it then diminish the incentive for risking a battle for third or fourth place.

On Patrick Head's suggestion, it has the correct scope but the loss of a meaningful qualifying would be a shame. Qualifying for a bonus point is a poor substitute to the battle for prime slot on the starting grid.

I remember somebody on another (inferior) forum making the following suggestion a while ago. Scrap points altogether. The drivers table is ordered by the number of wins. Any drivers with the same number of wins (including no wins) are ordered by the number of second places. If they have the same number of second places they are ordered by the number of third places - and so on down the placings until we have a unique position for each driver.

This rewards each place finish in the race but each place gained is worth an order of magnitude more to the driver. One 10th place for a struggling driver will raise him above all those who have consistently acheived 11th places all season without a placing better than 11th. But fairness is maintained. If one of these more consistent drivers acheives their first 10th place then all those 11th places will move them ahead of the inconsistent driver who also has only one 10th place.

Actually you could assign points to this system. Not sure how you would sell it to the public, because the scoring is in the base of the number of races in the year, eg. if there are 18 races it would be in base18! Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that bit. I don't want it to detract from the aim: to reward risk taking.
Formerly known as senna-toleman

Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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KERS and adjustable winglets may be used as overtaking things but actually they can be more than that.

Adjustable flaps may (will) change the nature of driving in F1, and KERS will also change the driving since the energy flow is different from the engine.

So i see that as a first step in 2009 before a more profound revamp.

Max mosley is not an "overtaking" frenzy, actually, he does have the same view than us, that is an overtake should be the conclusion of better driving, not because you have easier conditions.

I know KERS (because it is to be used like a push to pass) is contradictory but again that's a first step.


As for the reverse grid, that could be cool, but i'm sad the qualifying would go away, as we're talking about purity of racing, that has been one core of racing since long time.

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dave kumar
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Re: Improving the ability of F1 cars to overtake ontrack

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hope this works....

Image
http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ingdl7.jpg

[no failed! - you'll have to check out the url] ... trying to upload a table showing what the Driver's Championship standings would have been if the standings were determined on number of 1st places, number of 2nd places etc as per my previous post....
The drivers table is ordered by the number of wins. Any drivers with the same number of wins (including no wins) are ordered by the number of second places. If they have the same number of second places they are ordered by the number of third places - and so on down the placings until we have a unique position for each driver.
This can then be compared with the current points system for the years 2004 - 2007 inclusive. As you can see such a change wouldn't have altered the outcome of the championship for the last 4 years. In fact there are only a few noticable movers - Wurz up 4 places in 2007, Barrichello down 4 places in 2006, Ralf down 3 places and Heidfeld up 3 place in 2005, Button and Alonso both down 3 places and Raikkonen up 4 places in 2004.

So what would be the point of changing. Well none if you do it retrospectively. But if the drivers know of the new scoring system then there would be more incentive for battling for their best finish of the season to date as this would catapult them in to a new peer group of competitors.

What I wanted to show with this table was that it can't stop someone romping away with the title - Schumacher 2004. His complete domination of the first half of the season would have wrapped up the championship by the 12th round. In fact it is remarkably unradical in changing the final standings of drivers. So we can have our cake and eat it. The best driver/car still wins, and second, third and forth place will be earned as usual, but there is now a big incentive to fight for position - that 2nd place could be vital at the end of the season if it is your best chance of a 2nd place this season.

Of course without other changes the majority overtaking would still be acheived through pit stop strategy rather than actual ontrack overtaking. However I think it is necessary to increase the incentive for drivers and teams to take risks to gain track position.


sources for finishes in each race as follows, appologies for any mistakes:
http://www.astro.livjm.ac.uk/~cjs/f1/chart04.gif
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/seasons/2005/ ... s/drivers/
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/standings/index2006.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/standings/index2007.shtml
Formerly known as senna-toleman